Checkride coming up soon - slow flight

MadseasoN

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MadseasoN
I'm expecting to get the green light to schedule my checkride within the next couple weeks or so. However, I have something that I'd like opinions on from you guys. Maybe you've experienced this and can tell me how to you've dealt with it. I fly a Piper PA-28-161.

Slow Flight without flaps - not sure why but I'm still nervous doing SF (55-65 KIAS) with 0 flaps. Also simulated engine out while circling to land [no flaps]. I watched the instructor do this and bank up to 30 degrees at 70KIAS. I've also seen a 30d bank turning from base to final. I can't get comfortable with that bank angle at such a low airspeed. Thoughts?
 
I'm expecting to get the green light to schedule my checkride within the next couple weeks or so. However, I have something that I'd like opinions on from you guys. Maybe you've experienced this and can tell me how to you've dealt with it. I fly a Piper PA-28-161.

Slow Flight without flaps - not sure why but I'm still nervous doing SF (55-65 KIAS) with 0 flaps. Also simulated engine out while circling to land [no flaps]. I watched the instructor do this and bank up to 30 degrees at 70KIAS. I've also seen a 30d bank turning from base to final. I can't get comfortable with that bank angle at such a low airspeed. Thoughts?

The only way to get comfortable is to go out and do more.

Just last weekend I was brushing up on slow flight. Power on, clean, constant alt, verified the stall speed in that config at 52mph. Then flew around for about 15 minutes at 55mph, in the buffet but before the stall, until I could keep speed -0/+2mph, alt within 20 feet, constant rate turns both directions.
Followed that with the same drill with full flaps, stall at 45mph IAS, doing the drill at 48mph. Buffeting the whole time.
Go out and do slowflight over and over until you just starting to buffet. Then, you will confident in your ability to feel when the plane is too slow, and 55kts will feel easy.

Also, have your instructor take you out and do accelerated stalls in a 30* bank. Find out where the stall speed is. You will be surprised at how much margin you have. Add to that the fact that you are descending and have the wing less loaded, and your margin is even greater.
 
Practice is the answer - but before you do... Talk over your feelings of discomfort with your instructor. If he's stumped, ask him to ask around the community - perhaps an hour of dual with a different instructor will be all you need. I had a similar situation with 8s on pylons during my commercial training, and a different instructor was able to present it in a way that I "got" right away.

As for the power off approaches, I suggest maybe a few steep spirals at 30-45 degrees of bank, just so that you're used to the idea of being banked and comfortable with your stall margin when you're descending.
 
What plane are you doing your checkride in?

Find a Decathlon somewhere and go do some spin training. Then you don't have to worry about flaps because you ain't got any! :)
 
I'm expecting to get the green light to schedule my checkride within the next couple weeks or so. However, I have something that I'd like opinions on from you guys. Maybe you've experienced this and can tell me how to you've dealt with it. I fly a Piper PA-28-161.

Slow Flight without flaps - not sure why but I'm still nervous doing SF (55-65 KIAS) with 0 flaps. Also simulated engine out while circling to land [no flaps]. I watched the instructor do this and bank up to 30 degrees at 70KIAS. I've also seen a 30d bank turning from base to final. I can't get comfortable with that bank angle at such a low airspeed. Thoughts?

Are you comfortable with slow flight WITH flaps? If so, why are you uncomfortable just because the flaps are up?

Also, the Warrior stalls dirty at 44 knots (level). In any airplane, a 30º bank will increase your stall speed by only about 7.5%, or in the Warrior's case, about 3.3 knots. So, at 70 knots you still have a margin above the stall of greater than 20 knots. Another way to put it: To get the Warrior to stall at 70 knots, you'd have to have a bank angle of about 67 degrees and be pulling over 2.5 G's!

Armed with that knowledge, maybe you won't be so apprehensive next time... But I agree with everyone who suggests practice. Go up with your instructor and stall at 30º of bank. Do lots of slow flight and level stalls, too. And in a Warrior, 65 knots is not "slow flight" - Nor is 55. You should be able to hold it stable with the stall horn screaming and the wing buffeting.

Have fun! :goofy:
 
Focus on keeping the airplane coordinated. Thirty degrees bank in the pattern is not unusual. If you stay coordinated, you will be OK. A good thing would be to go out and practice slow flight at altitude. Do some 30 degree bank turns. Take your instructor with you.
 
Also since it's a "stock answer" but no one's mentioned it...

Go find an instructor and aircraft someday (doesn't have to be now, unless you're REALLY nervous... early in your flying... preferably before you have 100 hours in the logbook...) who'll either show you spins in the Utility Category in a similar aircraft to your own...

Or just go whole hog and get in something Aerobatic-rated with appropriate safety gear strapped to your butt and go see what happens if you take that stall past the point of where you should have released the back pressure...

... and you'll be a LOT more comfortable in slow-flight.

Then get them to do it (if the aircraft is rated for it) from that accelerated stall Alan mentioned, and see the difference. (Usually more violent entry, but not "scary"... unless you really hate roller coasters and motion and such.)

I thank my lucky stars that my Primary instructor taught spins to every student, and still does to this day. Slow flight isn't the "scary place at the edge of the envelope" at all, once you've been on out a little bit further in that envelope to regular spins.

In Cessnas rated to do them, they're quite benign unless you work REALLY hard to get an accelerated, "over the top" spin entry, and even then, they're not eye-popping like in something Aerobatic rated with a higher wing loading and perhaps some significantly high engine HP and torque behavior. (Most properly rigged Cessnas do spin faster/better to the left though... try both.)

After about ten of those, maximum... you'll probably be able to exit them to a known heading with ground references. Or at whatever number of turns you like (watching altitude, of course). Especially if you have an instructor like mine who'd see that I was already "ho-hum" about it and offered up the challenge... "Bet'cha you can't recover and be headed straight north at wings level!" I didn't the first couple of times, but I was close! Eventually I got it there, in that airplane.

Most training spins done in Cessnas aren't even what most test-pilots would call "fully developed" and can be stopped at will. Quite fun.

The guy who holds the world's record for number of spins in a Cessna 150 knew at which turn the engine would quit... I found an interview article with him once where he talked about it, but have lost the link. Up around 12 or so, if I remember correctly...

At that point, the fuel has been held away from the feeds at the wing root by centrifugal force long enough that the fuel from there through the selector switch/valve and on up to the engine compartment is all used up... and the prop stops. He went waaaaaay past that for the record.

It freaks me the heck out that someone here locally shared with me that a DE flunked a Private ride once, because the student got the aircraft into a spin. I have no other details, but that's a heck of a lot of horsing the controls around to even "get there" in most typical trainers. Might depend a bit on what you're flying... I'm a Cessna guy.

After a typical spin session in a Skyhawk, I could get a little arm shake going by the fourth from pulling... even with the trim set all the way up, trying to cheat a bit in the entry. It takes some doing.

But I'm not exactly Lou Ferrigno when it comes to upper-body strength either. :D

Anyway...

Find an instructor who'll let you get down to slow flight and then keep pulling. And of course, do it in an appropriately rated aircraft and an appropriately skilled instructor. Many younger CFIs, no insult intended, haven't even done this.

Get her slowed all the way up, and then get her cross-controlled. Find an instructor who can help you get it to simulate both a "Departure stall" scenario where you're climbing out and letting the nose just keep coming up and up and up (you'll be surprised how far "up" you really need to go) and you're ham-footed on the rudder on purpose, maybe the controller called out traffic he/she wasn't expecting right off your nose, opposite direction, right after takeoff.

Then do the accelerated stuff to see how the margins change, and learn how the kids who think low, fast fly-bys with that "airshow pull" at the end at the local airpark end up dead at the end of the runway. Find that point where angle of attack no longer has anything to do with indicated airspeed in an appropriately rated aircraft, someday.

Like I said, you still have to work at it a bit in most training aircraft.

And remember, many aircraft manuals prohibit accelerated stalls... the forces on the airframe (and you) are typically higher. (Read the book, don't wait for the movie!)

If you fly one particular type a lot... and it's rated... try to do some spins in that type. Otherwise, try to get an aircraft as close to what you're flying so you can use the warning signs coming from your butt, inner ear, the eardrum (sounds), etc... back in your own aircraft.

This is more to your advantage, in my opinion, than doing everything in an Aerobatic-rated aircraft. Do it in something similar, so you can use your head-knowledge of what you see, hear, and feel... to avoid inadvertently doing it on a "normal" flight in your bird.

I'm very lucky in regards to slow-flight... Not horsing back and causing an accelerated stall, but nice and slowly transitioning to slow flight, I can slow the Skylane up, since we have the stall fences from the Robertson STOL kit, and dirty or clean... but it does this REALLY well with about 20-40 degrees of flap... just hang there with all 230 HP going full tilt boogie, and the yoke all the way back to the rear stop, and it'll mush along mostly straight ahead with little jabs of rudder to lift a wingtip from time to time, while losing about 700-800 fpm.

Our poor imitation of a high-Alpha jet demonstrator maneuver, I guess. Feels like a massive deck up-angle, but it's not as high as you think it is. :D

[Side-note... our O-470 won't do true full-tilt boogie up here at any altitude that's safe in the practice area to be doing this stuff. My home airport is at 5820' MSL.]

The Skylane's not rated for spins... prohibited, in fact... so I don't ever even tempt myself there... just keep it level with the rudder and it'll hang there with the airspeed indicator bouncing off the bottom peg. If a good gust truly drops a wing, release back pressure and recover, right now.

Once I worked my way up to that in our bird, "normal" slow flight speeds are a breeze... in fact, since most CFI's have never flown the Robby-equipped C-182, they're usually quite surprised just how slow we can get it beyond where their "butt" thinks we're in "slow-flight".

You have to consciously make it a point to ask them if they're looking for minimum-controllable airspeed, or if they just want you down around 30-40 knots indicated ... 'cause some just haven't seen a Skylane fly that slow. :cornut:

Usually it's most fun to get it down to 35-40 knots where they think you're going REALLY slow, hold it there solid as a truck for a bit, and then say... "It'll go slower. Want to see?"

The air work to see if it'd get that slow without dropping a wing or exhibiting any other weird behavior was done with plenty of altitude, and in personal preparation for trying out the "Robertson Method" takeoff in the POH Addendum added to the aircraft with the STOL kit.

Full power, brakes release, select flaps 30 (!), and it'll come off the ground in ground-effect at about 35 MPH indicated. It's crazy! And it happens quicker than I thought it would.

Only did a few of them exactly by the book, for a number of reasons... first, you're so rediculously behind the power curve that if the engine so much as hiccups, you're going to re-arrive at the runway, however far you're down it... toot sweet, like... right now.

Next, the nose stays so low you worry that you're going to skip the nosewheel off the pavement, and nosewheels and heavy loads are not good on Skylane firewalls. It tries to lift off mains-first, and it works out better to have far more nose-up trim than the "Takeoff" indication in our aircraft, I've learned. That first one, I was hauling back on the yoke trying not to let the aircraft do it's best wheelbarrow imitation.

Finally, the whole full-power thing with brakes on is always hard on everything, and tends to find every rock, pebble, and grain of sand on the runway, and throws them into the prop or something. Hard on stuff.

You can mitigate this by rolling forward a little bit, but I was trying to do it "by the book" just to see where the max-performance of the aircraft was.

Now that I've seen it, and know I'll almost never truly NEED it, I don't really need to abuse my poor airplane that much anymore. (And I picked as clean a runway as I could find and a darn long one, at that... to do these tests.)

Once off the ground, you hover along in ground effect, letting it accelerate to a speed where you can start milking the flaps out... 20, then 10... and up and away at Vx or Vy at that point. With 230 HP (derated by our altitude and whatever temperature it is outside... density altitude...) it'll immediately start to accelerate, but there's a second or two where you're way back there in the power curve. Not all the way back, like out in the practice area, but... hey... you see where this is headed?

Is fun and important to note with the STOL kit, that it'll come off the pavement sooner, but the obstacle clearance numbers are actually worse. All that drag with the flaps hanging out, means you can't accelerate as well, thus, you can't point the nose skyward.

You have to be very patient (or so it seems, since in "real-time" it's only a second or two) and wait for airspeed, and THEN you can start to climb.

If you need climb, or it's a hot/high day, the STOL kit does you zero good... leave the flaps up (or 10...) and get more acceleration.

Okay I drifted off into STOL kit stories there for a reason...

But they were to talk to the original point.

I wouldn't have EVER attempted those takeoffs without first going out to the practice area and getting really really REALLY comfortable with power-on slow-flight... because that's EXACTLY what you're doing for the book numbers Robertson STOL takeoff.

The only "surprise"... was that the stall horn came on as the aircraft lifted off at the book-published speed and squeaked at me a couple of times. Of course, I realized that max performance means max performance, but... just kinda wasn't expecting the horn. A tiny little jolt of adrenaline that first time... as you wonder... "Oh man, this is slow! Did I miss something in these numbers?"

Furtive glances at the airspeed indicator, while my rational brain screamed, "It's okay... you have to get the nose a LOT higher than that to mush it back into the ground... you've seen this in the practice area already, idiot!"

And a little pilot-induced-oscillation on the first one... horn on, release a little back pressure almost instinctively, horn off, realize you are accelerating like crazy up to Vx, pull a tiny bit again, horn back on, fingers instinctively stop pulling again, horn off, pull a little more... realize you're at Vx and going up very nicely, level off and start milking out the flaps (no detents in our 1975, so you can be a huge chicken and also very smooth bringing them up just a touch at a time, it's just awkward to be leaning over that far for an what feels like an extended period of time with your right hand on that handle...)... and away you go!

This whole thing took roughly 5-10 seconds. But that lovely time-compression you get with that adrenaline shot, means you remember that first one very... very well. Same thing with your first spin or two.

No way I would have even attempted those takeoffs without:
a) A couple of hours wallowing around in slow flight (with appropriate breaks to let the poor engine get some cooling air)...
b) Spin training and lots of slow-flight during that years before.
c) No one else on board... or only a CFI willing to do it. (Hey, it's a high-performance maneuver... I'm not taking friends/loved-ones along on the first flight to explore the envelope of my airplane... get some time under your belt doing it first, just like normal flight.

You gotta be comfortable with slow flight, for later fun. Expecially if you can find a buddy with a STOL kit on their Cessna. So... have fun with it... and don't worry so much. Slow flight is cool!

Some pilots say...

"She may be ugly, but she sure is fast!"

In our Robby Skylane, I proudly say...

"She may be pretty, but she sure is slow!"

Maybe someday I'll get to fly my dream slow-flyer... A DeHavilland Dash-7!
 
I think the first thing to do would be to review the PTS requirement for "Maneuvering During Slow Flight" and the section of the Airplane Flying Handbook "Maneuvering during slow flight at minimum airspeed" on page 5-2 with your instructor.
A. TASK: MANEUVERING DURING SLOW FLIGHT
(ASEL and ASES)

REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective.


To determine that the applicant:

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to maneuvering during
slow flight.
2. Selects an entry altitude that will allow the task to be completed no
lower than 1,500 feet (460 meters) AGL.
3. Establishes and maintains an airspeed at which any further increase
in angle of attack, increase in load factor, or reduction in power,
would result in an immediate stall.
4. Accomplishes coordinated straight-and-level flight, turns, climbs, and
descents with landing gear and flap configurations specified by the
examiner.
5. Divides attention between airplane control and orientation.
6. Maintains the specified altitude, ±100 feet (30 meters); specified
heading, ±10°; airspeed, +10/
0 knots; and specified angle of bank, ±10°.
When you do that, you'll see that what you have described to us is not what the PTS requires or what the AFH recommends. If you work on this task, I think you'll be able to improve your confidence in the airplane's ability to fly in the conditions you describe, which are much less critical.​


 
I'm expecting to get the green light to schedule my checkride within the next couple weeks or so. However, I have something that I'd like opinions on from you guys. Maybe you've experienced this and can tell me how to you've dealt with it. I fly a Piper PA-28-161.

Slow Flight without flaps - not sure why but I'm still nervous doing SF (55-65 KIAS) with 0 flaps. Also simulated engine out while circling to land [no flaps]. I watched the instructor do this and bank up to 30 degrees at 70KIAS. I've also seen a 30d bank turning from base to final. I can't get comfortable with that bank angle at such a low airspeed. Thoughts?

You likely won't be tested on the specific tasks you've described.

Your CFI is likely demonstrating the performance envelope of the airplane to you, and that it flies perfectly well at 70 knots and 30 degrees of bank.
 
I think the first thing to do would be to review the PTS requirement for "Maneuvering During Slow Flight" and the section of the Airplane Flying Handbook "Maneuvering during slow flight at minimum airspeed" on page 5-2 with your instructor.

I interpret that as 1 knot above stall speed. Am I misinterpreting? If this is the case, my CFI demonstrated 50kt slow flight isn't quite there yet....think I'll work on this next solo flight.
 
I own a PA28-161 (Warrior for short). You are not supposed to spin a warrior, bad things can happen. I am sure you are aware of this, which might be the reason for your discomfort. Banking while in slow flight, you might be thinking you can put her into a spin, well you can't, it takes a whole lot more effort than 70kts and a 30 degree bank.

Warriors are some of the most forgiving airplanes available, they are designed for people such as myself, they let you get away with almost any idiotic mistake you can make.

It really is true, that if you can not figure out what to do, just let go of the controls, the Warrior will figure it out for you. If you don't believe me, ask your instructor to give you a demonstration.

You can take the warrior down to the stall horn and fly it at that speed as long as you want. You can do thirty degree banks with no problem. A good slow flight is one where the stall horn is on constantly. Do this with your instructor. After an hour or so of maneuvering and flying at that speed, you will scoff at 70 kts.

Remember a check ride is just that, the examiner is checking your instructors work. It's your instructor you have to impress, not the examiner.

John
 
I'm expecting to get the green light to schedule my checkride within the next couple weeks or so. However, I have something that I'd like opinions on from you guys. Maybe you've experienced this and can tell me how to you've dealt with it. I fly a Piper PA-28-161.

Slow Flight without flaps - not sure why but I'm still nervous doing SF (55-65 KIAS) with 0 flaps. Also simulated engine out while circling to land [no flaps]. I watched the instructor do this and bank up to 30 degrees at 70KIAS. I've also seen a 30d bank turning from base to final. I can't get comfortable with that bank angle at such a low airspeed. Thoughts?


You need more practice then.
 
Keep in mind that you can make as steep as you want in the thing without stalling provided you don't care about maintaining altitude.

I'll often bank much steeper then 30 degrees at pattern altitudes if that is what I need to bank to get the airplane to go where I want it to go. I simply don't plan on maintaining altitude while I'm doing it (hint if you don't pull on the yoke when you go into the bank you won't be stalling)
 
You can take the warrior down to the stall horn and fly it at that speed as long as you want. You can do thirty degree banks with no problem. A good slow flight is one where the stall horn is on constantly. Do this with your instructor. After an hour or so of maneuvering and flying at that speed, you will scoff at 70 kts.

John

Does the stall horn come on at 70 kots in a PA-28??

(That seems awful high)
 
my examiner had me fly around and maneuver with the the stall hall blaring. Even at that I was still a couple of knots above stall speed. Get up there with your instructor(or another instructor) and spend and hour in slow flight (~5knots above stall speed). 70 will feel fast after that :)
 
Does the stall horn come on at 70 kots in a PA-28??

(That seems awful high)

No, not a chance. The stall horn comes on just a few knots before the actual stall. In the air, dirty, it's just above forty knots. Put another way, if the stall horn comes on, and you continue pulling back on the yoke, it will stall. Get your stall horn sounding, then ease up on the yoke pressure slightly, keep the stall horn sounding. It is a good idea to have plenty of altitude when doing slow flight practice.

In the pattern, when you reach pattern altitude, adjust your RPMs to 2000. Your airspeed should be at 80 kts. When you pass the numbers adjust for 1800 RPMs and put in your first notch of flaps, maintain 80 kts.

When you turn base, adjust your airspeed to 70kts, put in your second notch of flaps, do not change the RPMs.

When your turn final, you will be banking and turning at 70 kts, much like your instructor is teaching you to do. When you clear the turn, put in you final notch of flaps. A normal landing will be done from 65-70 kts. For a short field landing you want to be at 60kts at the threshold with the throttle pulled all the way off, or there abouts.

Slow flight at 60 or 70 kts is simply basic pattern speed in a Warrior, it is not anything to concern yourself with while practicing at altitude.

As a side note, notice I used the term "in the pattern" when deploying your flaps. Never deploy your flaps until you are sure you can make the runway if the noise suddenly stops. Practice flying the pattern and landing with no flaps deployed (clean). Everything else will stay the same, 80 on down wind at 2000 RPMs, 70 on base at 1800 RPMs finale is 70 or less, depending on the type of landing.

John
 
No, not a chance. The stall horn comes on just a few knots before the actual stall. In the air, dirty, it's just above forty knots. Put another way, if the stall horn comes on, and you continue pulling back on the yoke, it will stall. Get your stall horn sounding, then ease up on the yoke pressure slightly, keep the stall horn sounding. It is a good idea to have plenty of altitude when doing slow flight practice.

In the pattern, when you reach pattern altitude, adjust your RPMs to 2000. Your airspeed should be at 80 kts. When you pass the numbers adjust for 1800 RPMs and put in your first notch of flaps, maintain 80 kts.

When you turn base, adjust your airspeed to 70kts, put in your second notch of flaps, do not change the RPMs.

When your turn final, you will be banking and turning at 70 kts, much like your instructor is teaching you to do. When you clear the turn, put in you final notch of flaps. A normal landing will be done from 65-70 kts. For a short field landing you want to be at 60kts at the threshold with the throttle pulled all the way off, or there abouts.

Slow flight at 60 or 70 kts is simply basic pattern speed in a Warrior, it is not anything to concern yourself with while practicing at altitude.

As a side note, notice I used the term "in the pattern" when deploying your flaps. Never deploy your flaps until you are sure you can make the runway if the noise suddenly stops. Practice flying the pattern and landing with no flaps deployed (clean). Everything else will stay the same, 80 on down wind at 2000 RPMs, 70 on base at 1800 RPMs finale is 70 or less, depending on the type of landing.

John

Well, you can deploy all flaps when abeam the numbers as well. There's no requirement for gradual flap application though some teach it due to the significant pitch up or balloon on some singles (Cessnas with 40 degrees, for example).

Stall warning devices are calibrated to some percentage above stall speed -- and 70 sounded fairly high to me (though it's been a year since I was in a PA-28)
 
Dang Nate, I'm glad you're here - You make my long, rambling posts look short and concise. ;)
 
I interpret that as 1 knot above stall speed. Am I misinterpreting? If this is the case, my CFI demonstrated 50kt slow flight isn't quite there yet....think I'll work on this next solo flight.

My reading (or paraphrasing) of the PTS "Maneuvering during slow flight" task says airspeed must be within 0 to 10 kts of "an immediate stall." As I understand it, the stall horn of most airplanes used for training sounds within ~10 kts of stall, so if the stall horn is on you are likely meeting the PTS standard. Just keep it blaring and the speed near the middle of the range as you can and I presume you are OK. (Caveat: I'm still a student also.)
 
My reading (or paraphrasing) of the PTS "Maneuvering during slow flight" task says airspeed must be within 0 to 10 kts of "an immediate stall." As I understand it, the stall horn of most airplanes used for training sounds within ~10 kts of stall, so if the stall horn is on you are likely meeting the PTS standard. Just keep it blaring and the speed near the middle of the range as you can and I presume you are OK. (Caveat: I'm still a student also.)


Or have it adjusted to sound 20 knots over stall.


:rolleyes2:
 
I interpret that as 1 knot above stall speed.
Nobody I know defines it in that specific a manner. Frankly, in that condition, you shouldn't be looking at the airspeed indicator, anyway -- you should have your eyes outside looking at attitude (it's easier to be really precise on attitude control based on external rather than internal references) and helping to detect any sign of yaw so you can use your feet to stop it. Basically, if the stall horn is blaring (or other stall warning system is activating continuously), the examiner will be satisfied. If you don't have a stall warning system, you'll need to be right on the edge of the buffet.

If this is the case, my CFI demonstrated 50kt slow flight isn't quite there yet....think I'll work on this next solo flight.
Good idea, but make sure you do so at an altitude allowing safe recovery if you accidentally stall it.
 
Does the stall horn come on at 70 kots in a PA-28??

(That seems awful high)
It does if you put enough g-load on it.

And you'd have to get pretty deep into a spin before really "bad things" began to happen. As long as you recover by the book while still in the incipient phase (less than 3 seconds/less than one turn), it will recover just fine with no permanent ill effects.
 
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Add to that the fact that you are descending and have the wing less loaded, and your margin is even greater.

I'm not sure if you meant it this way but descending doesn not reduce wing loading or stall speed/margin. When you are in a constant descent the wings are still generating the same lift as you would be in level flight. Initiating a descent does temporarily decrease wing loading but that's because you are accelerating towards the ground while the vertical speed is increasing. And you can maintain less than a one g load while descending but that requires that you continue to increase the descent rate by whatever portion of the g you've eliminated (e.g. reduce the load to .9 g means your descent rate must increase at .1 g or by 192 FPM every second. Even with that small reduction in the wing load you'll be doing almost 2000 FPM within 10 seconds, and if you don't let the forward speed build as well, you'll probably stall when you attempt to reduce that descent rate.
 
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It does if you put enough g-load on it.

And you'd have to get pretty deep into a spin before really "bad things" began to happen. As long as you recover by the book while still in the incipient phase (less than 3 seconds/less than one turn), it will recover just fine with no permanent ill effects.

According to the POH, a Warrior is not to be put into a spin, for practice or otherwise. I have heard that a Warrior has a tendency to flat spin and is almost impossible to get the nose down. How true that is, I don't know. I do know I do not try to spin my Warrior. Sides, Warriors are meant for hamburger chasing and training, not aerobatics. :wink2:

John
 
When you are in a constant descent the wings are still generating the same lift as you would be in level flight.

What did I miss in 4 forces class? Since we can't change the gravitational constant (like Q on ST:TNG) how do we descend? (seriously, not sarcastic)
 
What did I miss in 4 forces class? Since we can't change the gravitational constant (like Q on ST:TNG) how do we descend? (seriously, not sarcastic)

Like I said, you do briefly decrease the g force to descend but once you're in a continuous descent the g force returns to one. IOW you weigh the same when descending at 1000 FPM as you do in level flight. If you were paying attention in your physics class you'd have learned that unless you are changing speed (accelerating) the forces must be in balance and that means one g is still one g and lift equals weight.
 
What did I miss in 4 forces class? Since we can't change the gravitational constant (like Q on ST:TNG) how do we descend? (seriously, not sarcastic)

Like I said, you do briefly decrease the g force to descend but once you're in a continuous descent the g force returns to one. IOW you weigh the same when descending at 1000 FPM as you do in level flight. If you were paying attention in your physics class you'd have learned that unless you are changing speed (accelerating) the forces must be in balance and that means one g is still one g and lift equals weight.

This is, IMHO, an important point to emphasize. It leads to a better understanding of what's going on with your angle of attack. For the moment, let's ignore any turns. In any *unaccelerated* flight regime, your lift equals your weight - That is, if you're straight and level or in a steady-state climb or descent. When you begin a climb, you briefly increase your angle of attack and your G-load which accelerates you upwards. When you reach a steady state (constant rate of climb) ascent, your angle of attack returns to what it was in level flight, and you are once again experiencing 1 g.

When you level off, you momentarily decrease your angle of attack, the acceleration is in a downward direction, and when you reach steady-state level flight and level off, your angle of attack returns once again to that initial value, and you're once again experiencing 1 g. Same thing happens when you initiate a descent, and finally to arrest a descent you will once again momentarily increase AoA and g-loading before returning to that very same AoA and 1 g.
 
According to the POH, a Warrior is not to be put into a spin, for practice or otherwise. I have heard that a Warrior has a tendency to flat spin and is almost impossible to get the nose down. How true that is, I don't know. I do know I do not try to spin my Warrior. Sides, Warriors are meant for hamburger chasing and training, not aerobatics. :wink2:

John


I think Ron's reminding you that just because there's a NO SPINS placard doesn't mean the airplane can't be recovered from an intentional spin.

It may not be wise, smart, or fun, but it can be recovered using PARE(Warriors were spun routinely back in the 70s when everybody had to do spin training).
 
I think Ron's reminding you that just because there's a NO SPINS placard doesn't mean the airplane can't be recovered from an intentional spin.

It may not be wise, smart, or fun, but it can be recovered using PARE(Warriors were spun routinely back in the 70s when everybody had to do spin training).

Thanks Dan, I honestly didn't know about that. You just made me feel a whole lot better about my bird. I had thought the flat spin story was true.

John
 
my examiner had me fly around and maneuver with the the stall hall blaring. Even at that I was still a couple of knots above stall speed. Get up there with your instructor(or another instructor) and spend and hour in slow flight (~5knots above stall speed). 70 will feel fast after that :)
This is the way I was taught and the way I did it for my recent PPL checkride.

Aircraft was a Diamond DA20-C1, and with landing flaps in and slowed down to 55kts, the stall horn was on the full time (how I knew I had it slowed enough). We spent at least 30 minutes in this configuration each time we practiced it doing coordinated maneuvers.

It was a very good experience teaching me that the aircraft doesn't just fall out of the sky, how the controls do feel mushy at slower speeds, and what is necessary to safely bank, descend, climb, etc at these speeds.


I am now involved with transitioning to the flight school's Warrior III (part of their flying club). The last lesson involved lots of slow flight. It was an excellent training tool to teach me how the aircraft handles in that configuration and a big confidence booster for me.


So to the OP, Do as Cap'n Ron suggests and review the PTS on this manuever and practice within that standard. This is what the examiner expects and what you will be graded upon.

Once you get your license, then you can do some of the other things others have mentioned here.

But get the PTS requirement nailed down first.

And most importantly, relax. If you're doing the maneuver with tight shoulders and a tight grip on the yoke, take a moment and a deep breath or two, wiggle around and shake it out, then make another attempt. Being more relaxed when handing the controls has improved my flying tremendously.
 
Thanks Dan, I honestly didn't know about that. You just made me feel a whole lot better about my bird. I had thought the flat spin story was true.

John

http://www.flightlab.net/Flightlab.net/Home_files/10_Spins.pdf


Back to smaller aircraft: Our ground school text,
“Certification Requirements,” contains the civil
aircraft FAR Part 23.221 spin requirements. In
addition, “The Flight Test Guide for
Certification of Part 23 Airplanes” (FAA
Advisory Circular AC-23-8A)
5 provides
interpretation and procedures. Together they
describe the minimum acceptable spin
characteristics for each aircraft category. For the
normal category, in particular, meeting the
requirements actually means leaving much about
the aircraft’s spin characteristics still unknown.
The normal-category, one turn spin recovery
requirement is intended to address recovery from
an abused stall, meaning a stall in which controls
are held in the pro-spin position and recovery
inputs are delayed, not recovery from a
developed state with higher angular (rotary)
momentums needing greater aerodynamic
moments to counteract. Consequently, meeting
the requirement does not clear an aircraft for
intentional spins.

Don't wait for the spin to fully develop.
 
Thanks Dan, I honestly didn't know about that. You just made me feel a whole lot better about my bird. I had thought the flat spin story was true.

John,

I didn't get a chance to post earlier, but I also seriously doubt the flat spin story for the Warrior - The previous Cherokees with the "Hershey Bar" wing (instead of the newer tapered wing) *were* certified for intentional spins. I don't think there was that much of a difference between the two - I think Piper just wanted to save money on certification by not going through the additional required tests for intentional spin certification, since I think by then the spin requirement had been removed from the PP PTS.
 
And keep in mind that recovery from a spin in a warrior was likely a required item for certification (spin approved or not). Not sure if the warriors are CAR3 or Part 23 nor am I super familiar with CAR3 but in Part 23 I believe it is required.
 
And keep in mind that recovery from a spin in a warrior was likely a required item for certification (spin approved or not). Not sure if the warriors are CAR3 or Part 23 nor am I super familiar with CAR3 but in Part 23 I believe it is required.


This will be true *only* for certain W&B moments!

This accident with 3 aboard a PA-28 should be instructive.
 
And keep in mind that recovery from a spin in a warrior was likely a required item for certification (spin approved or not). Not sure if the warriors are CAR3 or Part 23 nor am I super familiar with CAR3 but in Part 23 I believe it is required.

CAR3 as are all PA28's.
 
Here's the Normal category requirement from the last edition of CAR 3:

SPINNING​
[FONT=IHPCDL+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman][FONT=IHPCDL+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]
§ 3.124 Spinning—​
(a) Category N. All airplanes of 4,000 lbs. or less maximum weight shall recover from a one-turn spin with the controls applied normally for recovery in not more than one additional turn and without exceeding either the limiting air speed or the limit positive maneuvering load factor for the airplane. In addition, there shall be no excessive back pressure either during the spin or in the recovery. It shall not be possible to obtain uncontrollable spins by means of any possible use of the controls. Compliance with these requirements shall be demonstrated at any permissible combination of weight and center of gravity positions obtainable with all or any part of the designed useful load. All airplanes in category N, regardless of weight, shall be placarded against spins or demonstrated to be "characteristically incapable of spinning" in which case they shall be so designated. (See paragraph (d) of this section.)
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
So the Warrior (and the other taper-wing PA28's) must have been tested to at least this 1-turn spin standard, which is similar to the the slightly more stringent spin standard in the current Part 23 (1 turn or 3 seconds, whichever comes last).
 
Thanks for all the advice, guys. I've flown again since creating this thread.

In the traffic pattern I focused on using ~30 degree bank turn to base and final. I saw an improvement on my pattern and landings. Completing the turn quicker gives you more time to adjust speeds on base and final.

Slow flight was to PTS standards in my opinion ... but still don't like flying at MCA.
 
Slow flight was to PTS standards in my opinion ... but still don't like flying at MCA.

The more you do it, the more comfortable you get. Go up on a day with a bit of wind a 3000 feet, and see what kind of groundspeeds you can get. I was doing some slow flight when I had a friend with, and I put the plane into "helicopter mode" as he put it. I'm pretty sure there's a positive correlation between flight at MCA and improving your landings too.

Best of luck!
 
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