Checklists

Bonanza said:
and after a story like this you have the nerve to say to me that you would not sign me off because I don't use a checklist.
You are obviously so tied to a check list that if it isn't on there you can't think clearly enough to realize it needs to be done.
Personally I prefer my way to yours. I would have caught your dumb mistake as part of my pre-flight mantra that I mentioned earlier.
If you are going to be a thoughtless slave to a checklist better make sure that it is 100 pages long and that every possible eventuality is covered, or be prepared for your canopy to come open in flight because it wasn't written down in black and white to check it.
Stephen.
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You don't use a checklist flying a Bo :rolleyes:


If I was doing a BFR with a pilot who didn't use a checklist, especially in a complex / IFR / RG, double especially in a RG, I wouldn't sign the guy off ether.

Dude gear ups his Bo or doesn't switch tanks and sputters into a field or forgets to turn the fuel on and the engine cuts out on initial climb out, presuming you survive you tell the NTSB you dont use checklists, NTSB looks in the logs maybe calls me about the recent BFR and I say what?
"Oh yeah, he doesn't use checklists, seemed fine to me"

Or even worse you pile the thing in for one of the above reasons, get someone hurt or killed, even if both you and your log burns up and no one ever sees my signature and numbers in your log, as a CFI I wouldn't want that on my conscious.
 
James331 said:
If I was doing a BFR with a pilot who didn't use a checklist, especially in a complex / IFR / RG, double especially in a RG, I wouldn't sign the guy off ether.
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Maybe we're just weird, in that we expect BFR "applicants" to perform at least to Private Pilot Practical Test Standards.
 
JOhnH said:
I'm not so sure about that. With two pilots, there is always the "I thought you did that!" problem.
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There is no mistake proof system of doing anything. The only thing you can go on is a matrix of probabilities and outcomes and find how to minimize your ultimate exposure.
 
I just don't understand the negativity towards the people that use checklists. It takes a lot of moving parts to get an airplane in the air, and any one of them can bring you down in hurry. A checklist is just a list of things you don't want to forget. You are going to do them anyway. What's wrong with writing it down? Especially if you don't fly every day, or even every week.

Now for emergency situations, you should be able to react instantly without a checklist, but even then once the emergency is handled, or you have time, you should still use a checklist to verify you didn't forget anything, otherwise, you may just have an eventful landing.
 
bgdriveway said:
Why do people like making such busy, complicated check lists for small airplanes? ...Get in a Warrior or Skyhawk, your talking 15 pages to find what to check before doing your run up.
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Which people? Pilots or Manufacturers? It might be 15 pages in the POH for the 172 that I use, but that's because the font is size 50 with 1 inch margins. I used the POH to make my own which is much shorter. I have no desire to get into the argument about checklists and flows, as I kind of do both. I use the checklist for reference to tasks and using my fingers to point out things that I want to look at to give me motor memory of some of the items. I will say that I've picked up some good ideas from this thread though. I'm going to try and restructure and simplify it without losing the integrity of the information.


bgdriveway said:
What are the things that will kill you or get you in a world of hurt that you check and double check?
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Flaps and Mixture. I have both listed in a red font on my checklists. Once, I didn't richen the mixture before run up and left it that way for takeoff. The engine sputtered a little when I went full throttle, but then was fine. The RPM came up and I took off and noticed after I was airborne that the mixture was still leaned for ground and taxi. I didn't care for the oversight much :no: and realized that yes, I can miss something that's written right in front of my face on a list. I added that to my "red" items where necessary. I suppose I could still miss it, but maybe it will get noticed at a glance if the time comes that it might make a difference.
 
JOhnH said:
I just don't understand the negativity towards the people that use checklists. It takes a lot of moving parts to get an airplane in the air, and any one of them can bring you down in hurry. A checklist is just a list of things you don't want to forget. You are going to do them anyway. What's wrong with writing it down? Especially if you don't fly every day, or even every week.

Now for emergency situations, you should be able to react instantly without a checklist, but even then once the emergency is handled, or you have time, you should still use a checklist to verify you didn't forget anything, otherwise, you may just have an eventful landing.
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While this may be the general perception, it is far from the truth of the matter.
The truth is, there are only a couple things that can fail that will bring you down quickly, and they are bolts that are stronger than the surrounding structure.

As long as structural integrity is maintained, you'll glide ok. Even the planes we consider 'bricks' are gliding 5:1.

The most important thing for a pilot to maintain is Karma.:lol:;)
 
JOhnH said:
I just don't understand the negativity towards the people that use checklists. It takes a lot of moving parts to get an airplane in the air, and any one of them can bring you down in hurry. A checklist is just a list of things you don't want to forget. You are going to do them anyway. What's wrong with writing it down? Especially if you don't fly every day, or even every week.

Now for emergency situations, you should be able to react instantly without a checklist, but even then once the emergency is handled, or you have time, you should still use a checklist to verify you didn't forget anything, otherwise, you may just have an eventful landing.
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I don't understand the negativity from professional pilots. Amateur cowboys, sure. But my interactions with our crews includes religious use of checklists for everything, including callouts. And they do look like 15 page flip-books -- a smaller page or two for each list, always done in callout-response form. We have much larger checklists for the mission crew in the back, but that's a mission quality thing, not a safety thing. I find it really REALLY hard to believe that an Airbus is so completely automated compared to an old 747 that the procedures are that much simpler. They also have only 2/3 the flight crew; we always fly with a flight engineer. We're a public aircraft, so the rules are different (and we fly Part 91), but that difference seems completely in the wrong direction.

I learned a ton from a couple of 30 minute stints in the jumpseat at critical phases of flight. Every private pilot (or even better, student pilot) should have that opportunity, but unfortunately Part 121/135 doesn't allow it anymore.

FYI, for emergency situations, there are a few things you must react quickly to. Like pitching for best glide if the engine fails on takeoff. But you can -- and should -- work deliberately and calmly for most of it, with the emergency checklists. If your engine quits at 3000 AGL in a 172, you'll have around 5 minutes before landing. If your gear fails to extend, you may have hours (depends on fuel available), and it's stupid to risk hitting an obstruction or terrain while urgently fumbling for the gear pump handle and then have it not work because you didn't read the checklist and had the lever up.
 
One issue with long checklists and reading line by line, at least for me, is it's easy to get in a hurry and miss something when you've got 10 items lined up for the runup, in 10 point font, with no spacing (that describes most provided rental plane checklists I've come across). I forgot to set flaps for a short field takeoff once. Had I not been running through 30 line items, I never would of missed that in a normal memory based flow.

I had an old airline pilot as my DPE. The first thing out of his mouth was that I should know every step by heart and the checklist is just to scan afterwards.

With that said, if I haven't flown in a few months (usually weather related), I use the full checklist line by line for engine start and run up to be sure I'm not forgetting something.

Of course, my flying is in 4 seat pistons. So there's very little I can forget that will make me fall out of the sky on takeoff. Others in more complicated planes have more to worry about. Gear up/down in a complex is probably the most obvious one and not something you want to forget.
 
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Checklist discipline requires, well, discipline.

I'm sure most instructors have watched a student go through the checklist and skip items.

For instance, he's on item 5 of the runup checklist, and you know he missed item 4. Easy to do - there's a natural tendency to "float around" a little - I know I have to guard against that. I have him go back to item 1 to reinforce the missed item on the second run through.

And that HAS brought down planes - the jet where they missed pitot heat from an interrupted checklist and then got spatially disoriented and spun in comes to mind.
 
FastEddieB said:
Checklist discipline requires, well, discipline.

I'm sure most instructors have watched a student go through the checklist and skip items.

For instance, he's on item 5 of the runup checklist, and you know he missed item 4. Easy to do - there's a natural tendency to "float around" a little - I know I have to guard against that. I have him go back to item 1 to reinforce the missed item on the second run through.

And that HAS brought down planes - the jet where they missed pitot heat from an interrupted checklist and then got spatially disoriented and spun in comes to mind.
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My point is, it's easy for newer pilots, especially those that rent, to start running through 100 line items as the Hobbs ticks away and miss some things. I'm not saying it's right, but it can happen.

I see both sides. When your checklist is too full of unnecessary stuff (or stuff you should know by heart), it can clog the process and cause mistakes. On the other hand, if your checklist has too few items, you can miss something important if it's not there.

I guess that was the point of this thread. I like a nice 1 page checklist. I can't stand the 15 page flipbooks.

Truthfully, I find over-bloated checklists dangerous once in the air for obvious reasons.
 
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So does mentally doing "GUMPS" count as using a checklist? The last thing I want to do while approaching the airport is to be heads down reading a document.
 
It's not something you do on short final ;)
 
Sluggo63 said:
I am hoping Gucci will chime in here, since he's a KC-10 guy and since that's basically a newer COTS airplane, I'm curious if those guys use flows or our style of "challenge and response" checklists.
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We use a flow for the initial instrument scan(loading flight plan, testing radio systems, testing the autopilot, etc.) Once we all get in the seat, it is all challenge and response. Flight Engineer reads the checklist and each pilot responds with the correct response.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
We use a flow for the initial instrument scan(loading flight plan, testing radio systems, testing the autopilot, etc.) Once we all get in the seat, it is all challenge and response. Flight Engineer reads the checklist and each pilot responds with the correct response.
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That's pretty close to what we do (less the FE). While the AC is outside doing the walkaround, the CP will setup the cockpit using a flow, then once the AC sits down, it's all challenge & response.
 
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