Cheap + STOL + 2 seats ?

D

docmirror

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Can be exp or cert. Remember, cheap and stol and 2 seats. Operating at 6000 feet with 2600 gravel runway. Lets see what we can do.
 
Weight shift LSA. Two seats, STOL, cheap.
 
Kitfox would probably be your best bet..takeoff and landing ground roll is ~250'
 
I've been looking for something to fit a similar mission (lower alt. but much less runway) and I keep coming back to the Zenith products. Specifically the CH750.
 
docmirror said:
Can be exp or cert. Remember, cheap and stol and 2 seats. Operating at 6000 feet with 2600 gravel runway. Lets see what we can do.
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A C-152.

Thing is, the book numbers for a C-152 at gross weight at 6000 ft at 40 C with no wind is a ground roll of 1570 ft. A 50% safety margin puts the ground roll at 2355 ft. If you have the proverbial 50 ft obstacle at the end of the runway then you'll only be able to fly out on 0 C days and you'll have no safety margin over book numbers (2450 ft to clear 50 ft obstacle at 0 C.)

Or a C-172 used as a 2-seater:

A C-172M at 2100 lbs (two passengers and some actual baggage):
At 40 C, calm winds, 1465 ft ground roll. 2615 ft to clear the proverbial obstacle at the very end of the runway, so a tad too short if that is the case. Lighten it up to 1900 lbs (less baggage and/or fuel) and you'll clear the 50 ft obstacle in 2045 ft. And/or fly on cooler days or a headwind.

Head/tail winds and pilot consistency (or lack thereof) will affect the amount of runway length needed of course. The gravel, unless it is really loose, should be as good as asphalt or concrete for ground runs.

Long way of saying that I don't think the runway you cite requires a STOL plane - but it is of course nice to have one that takes off as short as possible.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Weight shift LSA. Two seats, STOL, cheap.
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I'd second that. As in, that would be my second choice if I couldn't find a cheap used CH-701. But it is hard to make suggestions without knowing how heavy the 2 people are and what kind of baggage, if any, they want to carry, and other factors that the OP hasn't mentioned (like range desired or intended use; stats on the one airfield aren't enough IMHO.)
 
Yup. I figure without any other qualifications that is cheapest. If it wasn't Doc I'd expect a second post clarifying that the aircraft also needs 200 knot cruise speed, FIKI, and a cargo area that can hold the piano they never travel without.:D
Jim Logajan said:
I'd second that. As in, that would be my second choice if I couldn't find a cheap used CH-701. But it is hard to make suggestions without knowing how heavy the 2 people are and what kind of baggage, if any, they want to carry, and other factors that the OP hasn't mentioned (like range desired or intended use; stats on the one airfield aren't enough IMHO.)
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I was thinking C175 but its 4 seat. I think with only 2 in and 10 flaps with a climb prop it will do the job.

Not considering any kind of open aircraft like weight shift canopy. More like fixed with enclosed cockpit single engine type.

I will have a look at the Zenith. Dont know anything about them yet.
 
docmirror said:
I was thinking C175 but its 4 seat. I think with only 2 in and 10 flaps with a climb prop it will do the job.

Not considering any kind of open aircraft like weight shift canopy. More like fixed with enclosed cockpit single engine type.

I will have a look at the Zenith. Dont know anything about them yet.
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Ask Away......
 
docmirror said:
Under 20k.
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I would want just over 20K for my ride, otherwise it would qualify. Merlin GT.

At sea level I can do a stop and go on 1000 feet of runway. I suspect it will get off OK at the altitude you are contemplating.
 
docmirror said:
Can be exp or cert. Remember, cheap and stol and 2 seats. Operating at 6000 feet with 2600 gravel runway.
[...]
Under 20k.
[...]
Not considering any kind of open aircraft like weight shift canopy. More like fixed with enclosed cockpit single engine type.
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Going to be tough to find many enclosed experimentals for under $20k - even kits with no engines are pushing that number, let alone STOL kits. Older used CH-701s might be found under $20k.

Cessna C-150 or Piper Colt might be your best bets.
 
SOCATA Rallye

STOL


A RALLYE 150 ought to run you about $25k.


Ok, it has a back seat, but I use that as its trunk
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I would want just over 20K for my ride, otherwise it would qualify. Merlin GT.

At sea level I can do a stop and go on 1000 feet of runway. I suspect it will get off OK at the altitude you are contemplating.
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Well, that's nice to know but since I don't know what it is, I guess I'm outta luck.
 
N801BH said:
Ask Away......
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I just spent a bit of time on the website. Looks like the real deal. I saw one on BS pretty cheap with a VW engine. Wondering what kind of performance I would get with the VW 2180 and a Sonex turbo kit. I like turbo for higher altitude ops in summer.

There's also one with an A75 in it and no elec system. Says it cruises at 75MPH. Both are around the price range.
 
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docmirror said:
That helps. wiki(from Merlin) says 104kts cruise. Possible? or marketing dream?
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Marketing. Totally. It's got a big fat wing like a Cub and about the same power

I see 85 - 90 statute miles per hour. There are some things I can do to clean it up quite a bit and get faster, but it's not like I have nothing else to do...
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Marketing. Totally. It's got a big fat wing like a Cub and about the same power

I see 85 - 90 statute miles per hour. There are some things I can do to clean it up quite a bit and get faster, but it's not like I have nothing else to do...
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Ok, pretty much as expected. There's no free lunch out there, and it's in line with similar airframe and powerplant numbers. I don't see flaps or slats, Wondering about it's STOL abilities?
 
CH750

150hp Citabria

What's your needed load and range?

Heck I could do that in a 7AC if it was just me and I didn't need long range.
 
We're veering away from cheap. Note this is the first of the objectives. I would like to cruise around 100MPH, or so, but a bit less isn't a killer. Range maybe 250 miles.
 
Aeronca Chief or Wittman Tailwind.
 
You know what's up, many planes will do the job, just look at the power to weight ratio. IIRC the Highlander Super STOL is the fastest of the real STOL planes with the retractable slats. I would like one with a Rotax 914. They are small though, all these planes are, it's a power to weight thing, but for a cheap to fly go anywhere plane, it's a real contender, float kit is available as well.
 
Henning said:
You know what's up, many planes will do the job, just look at the power to weight ratio. IIRC the Highlander Super STOL is the fastest of the real STOL planes with the retractable slats. I would like one with a Rotax 914. They are small though, all these planes are, it's a power to weight thing, but for a cheap to fly go anywhere plane, it's a real contender, float kit is available as well.
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$60-90k finished. Not interested in building right now.

Thinking the T-craft with big engine might do better.
 
docmirror said:
$60-90k finished. Not interested in building right now.

Thinking the T-craft with big engine might do better.
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I thought I saw regular Highlanders in the $20-30k range, complete.:dunno: A big engine T-Craft would likely be just fine.
 
docmirror said:
Ok, pretty much as expected. There's no free lunch out there, and it's in line with similar airframe and powerplant numbers. I don't see flaps or slats, Wondering about it's STOL abilities?
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The Avid Flyer mixes the ailerons with flaps. The Merlin does not. How STOL do you need?
 
Well, about 7000' elevation, going to have ~2500' of gravel with fairly clear at both ends. I suppose I could do it with a lightly loaded 172 just barely, but I don't like to do aviation stuff with 'just barely'.

So, I'm not getting in and out of a gravel bar, but I'm also going to be operating at DA of 9500' sometimes. I'm serious considering an EXP plane that I can put a blower on. Really would like near sea level power on the engine on those hot days.
 
docmirror said:
Well, about 7000' elevation, going to have ~2500' of gravel with fairly clear at both ends. I suppose I could do it with a lightly loaded 172 just barely, but I don't like to do aviation stuff with 'just barely'.

So, I'm not getting in and out of a gravel bar, but I'm also going to be operating at DA of 9500' sometimes. I'm serious considering an EXP plane that I can put a blower on. Really would like near sea level power on the engine on those hot days.
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I don't have data at 7000 feet - but here is what I get from my ride at sea level. You can compare it to a lightly loaded 172...


Wind 160 at 5
Temperature 22 C, dew point 15
Altimeter 30.35
Runway 17 at ONZ - 590' MSL

1050 pounds takeoff weight (Gross is 1300 so this is just me and about 1/2 fuel)

Stop with the tail right on the end of the runway - Apply brakes, run up the mighty Rotax 912, and go. Ground run 196 feet.

Roll in from a moderate taxi speed, start pushing power in as I turn - as much as I felt comfortable with. Ground run (measured from the end of the runway) about 165 feet.
 
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Have you measured your service ceiling? Defined for this case as 100FPM climb at best rate on a STP day. Wondering about one of those 9500' DA day operations, and if I could even gain enough speed to lift off the ground and climb. I think no matter what I get, it's going to have a turbo, and that means exp, and have to add the turbo to the plane, cuz unlikely any are going to have that from the start.
 
docmirror said:
Have you measured your service ceiling? Defined for this case as 100FPM climb at best rate on a STP day. Wondering about one of those 9500' DA day operations, and if I could even gain enough speed to lift off the ground and climb. I think no matter what I get, it's going to have a turbo, and that means exp, and have to add the turbo to the plane, cuz unlikely any are going to have that from the start.
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No. Under yea olde sport pilot rules I'm stuck at <10,000 MSL for the most part. I climb reasonably well up to 8500 but I don't recall exact numbers.

It seems unlikely that you would find something that already has a turbo in the $20K range.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
No. Under yea olde sport pilot rules I'm stuck at <10,000 MSL for the most part. I climb reasonably well up to 8500 but I don't recall exact numbers.

It seems unlikely that you would find something that already has a turbo in the $20K range.
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You are correct sir. I found a VW powered Zenith that has piqued my interest. Along with the new kit from Sonex(or build my own) I can make a draw through turbo setup at about 25Lbs and get sea level MP up to 8000 on a STP day.

Which brings up another interesting question about LSA/SP. If I as a PPL holder want to operate a plane under LSA rules(no current medical), I am then operating as a SP I believe, and would be limited to the 10k' ceiling? Presuming the plane would go that high or higher? Is it an LSA limitation, or SP limitiation, or both, or either?
 
Id stay away from the belt drives, half VW engines and modified off road engines.
 
docmirror said:
Which brings up another interesting question about LSA/SP. If I as a PPL holder want to operate a plane under LSA rules(no current medical), I am then operating as a SP I believe, and would be limited to the 10k' ceiling? Presuming the plane would go that high or higher? Is it an LSA limitation, or SP limitiation, or both, or either?
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Pilot limitation (sport or other flying under sport rules). You can exceed 10K feet MSL if you are less than (I think) 2000 AGL.
 
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