Charitable Flights In An Experimental

[Geico266]

I would like to offer a flight for a charitable event to raise money for a very sick little boy. There is a silent auction thing and I could offer a tour over the city, say an hour or so. ect.

I was told years ago by the local FSDO this is illegal in an experimental due to the public not understanding experimental -v- certified. What is I had them sign a waiver or a lletter of understanding, ect?

I would like to help raise money for charitable events.

Any knowledgeable advice greatly appreciated.

What say you?

 

[poadeleted20]

This issue is covered in 14 CFR 91.146(b)(5) -- you cannot do it no matter what your passengers sign. Aircraft used for charitable flights to raise money must have a Standard airworthiness certificate, and per 91.905, the FSDO cannot waive any requirements of 91.146.

 

[Geico266]

This issue is covered in 14 CFR 91.146(b)(5) -- you cannot do it no matter what your passengers sign. Aircraft used for charitable flights to raise money must have a Standard airworthiness certificate, and per 91.905, the FSDO cannot waive any requirements of 91.146.

Rats.

How about they make a contribution and I take them flying?




This is why I do not do Young Eagles.

 

[hopmedic]

Are Young Eagles not charitable flights? I could swear I've seen YE flown in experimentals.

 

[tonycondon]

young eagles are free airplane rides for kids. no money involved

 

[Tom-D]

This issue is covered in 14 CFR 91.146(b)(5) -- you cannot do it no matter what your passengers sign. Aircraft used for charitable flights to raise money must have a Standard airworthiness certificate, and per 91.905, the FSDO cannot waive any requirements of 91.146.

Does this sick kid fit any of these definitions ?

(a) Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following definitions apply:

Charitable event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of a charitable organization recognized by the Department of the Treasury whose donors may deduct contributions under section 170 of the Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. Section 170).

Community event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of any local or community cause that is not a charitable event or non-profit event.

Non-profit event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of a non-profit organization recognized under State or Federal law, as long as one of the organization's purposes is the promotion of aviation safety.

(b) Passenger carrying flights for the benefit of a charitable, nonprofit, or community event identified in paragraph (c) of this section are not subject to the certification requirements of part 119 or the drug and alcohol testing requirements in part 120 of this chapter, provided the following conditions are satisfied and the limitations in paragraphs (c) and (d) are not exceeded:

THe only one that may come close is the community event.

 

[hopmedic]

Got it. Thanks.

 

[poadeleted20]

Rats.

How about they make a contribution and I take them flying?

Quack, quack.

[someone needs to make a quacking duck smiley]

This is why I do not do Young Eagles.

IIRC, Young Eagles permits E-AB aircraft, or has that changed? There's certainly no FAA issue, since there's no money changing hands (or, rather, there shouldn't be, per EAA's rules).

 

[Geico266]

young eagles are free airplane rides for kids. no money involved

In theory, but it is clearly the goal of EAA to recruit new members to pay dues.

 

[poadeleted20]

Does this sick kid fit any of these definitions ?

(a) Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following definitions apply:

Charitable event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of a charitable organization recognized by the Department of the Treasury whose donors may deduct contributions under section 170 of the Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. Section 170).

Community event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of any local or community cause that is not a charitable event or non-profit event.

Non-profit event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of a non-profit organization recognized under State or Federal law, as long as one of the organization's purposes is the promotion of aviation safety.

(b) Passenger carrying flights for the benefit of a charitable, nonprofit, or community event identified in paragraph (c) of this section are not subject to the certification requirements of part 119 or the drug and alcohol testing requirements in part 120 of this chapter, provided the following conditions are satisfied and the limitations in paragraphs (c) and (d) are not exceeded:

THe only one that may come close is the community event.

In many cases, folks establish a fund/foundation for such kids under 501(c)(3) so it's all tax-legal, and that would pull it right inside that particular tent. If you don't do that, you open a great and slimy can of worms when you start public fund-raising. I assumed that's what they did, but assuming is never wise.

 

[poadeleted20]

In theory, but it is clearly the goal of EAA to recruit new members to pay dues.

Maybe I missed something, but I'm an EAA member and YE pilot, and that's certainly not clear to me.

 

[Geico266]

Does this sick kid fit any of these definitions ?

(a) Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following definitions apply:

Charitable event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of a charitable organization recognized by the Department of the Treasury whose donors may deduct contributions under section 170 of the Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. Section 170).

Community event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of any local or community cause that is not a charitable event or non-profit event.

Non-profit event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of a non-profit organization recognized under State or Federal law, as long as one of the organization's purposes is the promotion of aviation safety.

(b) Passenger carrying flights for the benefit of a charitable, nonprofit, or community event identified in paragraph (c) of this section are not subject to the certification requirements of part 119 or the drug and alcohol testing requirements in part 120 of this chapter, provided the following conditions are satisfied and the limitations in paragraphs (c) and (d) are not exceeded:

THe only one that may come close is the community event.

Thanks Tom! I would say no. This is a private fund raiser for travel expenses for the family to the National Institute of Health in Maryland.

They have been to Mayo with no diagnosis.

Here is a link to the news article. Front page of today's paper.
http://journalstar.com/

 

[poadeleted20]

Thanks Tom! I would say no. This is a private fund raiser for travel expenses for the family to the National Institute of Health in Maryland.

In that case, unless the FSDO agrees it's a "local or community cause" and thus a "community event," it wouldn't fly even with a Standard category aircraft. I suspect the FSDO would have to run that past the Regional Counsel to be sure.

 

[catmandu]

I know that a $100 hamburger was auctioned off once, which drew great interest ("Gosh, $100 for a hamburger? Must be REALLY good!).

The listing noted "travel via air is best, but the restaurant is also accessible by car, winner's choice as to how we get there."

 

[AggieMike88]

Quack, quack.

[someone needs to make a quacking duck smiley]

 

[Geico266]

Maybe I missed something, but I'm an EAA member and YE pilot, and that's certainly not clear to me.

Young Eagles is a recruiting tool for new members right? Members attend OSH, pay dues, buy merchandise, ect. Very clearly ( although inadvertently) they are giving rides to raise money.

 

[tonycondon]

sure but there is no obligation to join

 

[Geico266]

sure but there is no obligation to join

There is no obligation to bid on the charitable flight.

 

[Skylane81E]

There is no obligation to bid on the charitable flight.

Must you bid to get it?

 

[Theboys]

Geico. If you give me a ride in your rv sometime ( even if you don't) I would be more than willing to loan you a plane for this purpose. Either a 172 or 160 hp grumman yankee. Just let me know. Joe

 

[Geico266]

Must you bid to get it?

Yes, Free to get in, $5 if you want to eat (all food is donated) silent auction for all kinds of stuff. I just thought an airplane ride around the city would be a good way to raise money for the kid.

 

[Geico266]

Geico. If you give me a ride in your rv sometime ( even if you don't) I would be more than willing to loan you a plane for this purpose. Either a 172 or 160 hp grumman yankee. Just let me know. Joe

How could I pass that up!


Seriously cool offer, you need a ride anyway!

 

[steingar]

Rats.

How about they make a contribution and I take them flying?




This is why I do not do Young Eagles.

Your loss, and a dumb one at that. YE flights are to recruit future pilots. I won't claim it to be an effective measure, but I certainly haven't heard anything better from anyone else.

 

[Geico266]

Your loss, and a dumb one at that. YE flights are to recruit future pilots. I won't claim it to be an effective measure, but I certainly haven't heard anything better from anyone else.

You are missing the point, but making mine. YE is a recruiting tool right? Recruiting members I which you have to pay to belong. Clearly, this is using airplane rides ( in experimental aircraft) to raise money for EAA. Why can't I raise money by auctioning off a ride for a sick little boy so his family can travel with him? He is 18 months old and losing ground. This is his last hope of survival.

I'm gonna do it and fill out a NASA form.

 

[steingar]

You are missing the point, but making mine.

No, I am disagreeing vehemently with you.

YE is a recruiting tool right?

Recruiting future pilots, so we aren't the last generation of airmen. In case you haven't heard, that is a distinct possibility. The pilot population in this country is diminishing rapidly. Young Eagles is EAA's answer to try and stem the flow. I won't make any claims to it's efficacy, but I haven't heard anyone else (including you) come up with anything that is both better and realistic.

Recruiting members I which you have to pay to belong.

Most of the kids I fly are too young to posses credit cards, or any other means of payment for membership in the EAA. I haven't seen anyone pressured to join in any way. Pilots have to belong to EAA to get the insurance.

Clearly, this is using airplane rides ( in experimental aircraft) to raise money for EAA.

I am afraid this is somewhat less than transparent to me. The passengers pay nothing, and the pilots donate their time and aircraft expenses. The EAA gets nothing, and pays for the insurance besides.

Why can't I raise money by auctioning off a ride for a sick little boy so his family can travel with him? He is 18 months old and losing ground. This is his last hope of survival.

You can. You simply have to fly something that meets the FAA's rules for certification. There are lots of examples out there, and if you were truly as committed as you claim, you would find one to rent or borrow so you could accomplish the task. This sounds to me more like another poorly thought out reason to *****.

I'm gonna do it and fill out a NASA form.

I hope it makes you feel better.

 

[poadeleted20]

Young Eagles is a recruiting tool for new members right?

No, it isn't. It's a program designed to get young people interested in aviation. The possible future revenues from possible future EAA membership is not part of the thought process.

 

[poadeleted20]

Why can't I raise money by auctioning off a ride for a sick little boy so his family can travel with him?

You certainly can do that, just as you can drive 90 mph down Main Street where the posted limit is 30 mph -- you just can't do it legally.

He is 18 months old and losing ground. This is his last hope of survival.

That just isn't the FAA's concern.

I'm gonna do it and fill out a NASA form.

You can do that if you wish, but it will not provide any waiver of sanction for a deliberate violation of the rules. Only way to avoid that is to find a Standard category airplane in which to do it instead of your E-AB bird, and then do the 91.146 paperwork.

 

[Geico266]

No, it isn't. It's a program designed to get young people interested in aviation. The possible future revenues from possible future EAA membership is not part of the thought process.

Sorry Ron, but that is not true. You might not be aware there is a new program to now follow up with YE participants and see if they are interested in joining EAA. I didn't make this up, it was presented at OSH last year and called "Flight Plan"

The second step is to join EAA.

http://www.youngeagles.org/flightplan/student_membership.asp

Third step is to order a Sporties "complimentary" program, knowing the students are likely to continue to use Sporties for other flight courses and products.

Like it or not Ron, this is marketing of EAA membership, merchandise, Sporties courses and merchandise.

 

[poadeleted20]

Sorry Ron, but that is not true. You might not be aware there is a new program to now follow up with YE participants and see if they are interested in joining EAA. I didn't make this up, it was presented at OSH last year and called "Flight Plan"

The second step is to join EAA.

http://www.youngeagles.org/flightplan/student_membership.asp

Third step is to order a Sporties "complimentary" program, knowing the students are likely to continue to use Sporties for other flight courses and products.

Like it or not Ron, this is marketing of EAA membership, merchandise, Sporties courses and merchandise.

Thanks for that info -- I was not aware of the new twists to that program. While I don't like the idea of doing any arm-twisting to get those kids to put money into EAA or anything else, the student membership is free, as is the Sporty's kit. Not a bad deal, I think, and getting them to sign on as junior members, putting the magazine in front of them, is a good way to keep them interested and motivate them to make aviation a career. I also note the free admission to 300+ S&T museums is another nice touch. All things considered, I think you're being overly cynical.

 

[Geico266]

Thanks for that info -- I was not aware of the new twists to that program. While I don't like the idea of doing any arm-twisting to get those kids to put money into EAA or anything else, the student membership is free, as is the Sporty's kit. Not a bad deal, I think, and getting them to sign on as junior members, putting the magazine in front of them, is a good way to keep them interested and motivate them to make aviation a career. I also note the free admission to 300+ S&T museums is another nice touch. All things considered, I think you're being overly cynical.

Possibly, but my cynicism is due to not being able to legally help a deserving charitable situation when clearly, EAA, Sporties, others are bending the rules.

The free thing is simply a "come on" offer like all other marketing campaigns.

 

[Tom-D]

You are missing the point, but making mine. YE is a recruiting tool right? Recruiting members I which you have to pay to belong. Clearly, this is using airplane rides ( in experimental aircraft) to raise money for EAA. Why can't I raise money by auctioning off a ride for a sick little boy so his family can travel with him? He is 18 months old and losing ground. This is his last hope of survival.

I'm gonna do it and fill out a NASA form.

Just give the kid a ride, if you need the money we can all help a little.

You can GIVE any one a ride.

Who mails you money is a nunya to the FAA.

 

[Geico266]

Thanks for that info -- I was not aware of the new twists to that program. While I don't like the idea of doing any arm-twisting to get those kids to put money into EAA or anything else, the student membership is free, as is the Sporty's kit. Not a bad deal, I think, and getting them to sign on as junior members, putting the magazine in front of them, is a good way to keep them interested and motivate them to make aviation a career. I also note the free admission to 300+ S&T museums is another nice touch. All things considered, I think you're being overly cynical.

Possibly, but my cynicism is due to not being able to legally help a deserving charitable situation when clearly, EAA, Sporties, others are bending the rules also.

The free thing is simply a "come on" offer like all other marketing campaigns with hopes that you will buy something.

 

[poadeleted21]

Possibly, but my cynicism is due to not being able to legally help a deserving charitable situation when clearly, EAA, Sporties, others are bending the rules also.

The free thing is simply a "come on" offer like all other marketing campaigns with hopes that you will buy something.

Why do I keep thinking of "gay marriage" while reading this thread?


Charity flights are meant to be between a donor and a certified aircraft... You're not being discriminated against... you CHOSE to fly an E-AB airplane.

 

[poadeleted20]

Possibly, but my cynicism is due to not being able to legally help a deserving charitable situation when clearly, EAA, Sporties, others are bending the rules also.

That is apparently clear only to you.

 

[Geico266]

Just give the kid a ride, if you need the money we can all help a little.

You can GIVE any one a ride.

Who mails you money is a nunya to the FAA.

I agree, I am way over thinking this.

I am giving a ride to someone who happen to donate money to a charatable event.

I better put weight & physical ability restrictions on the ride. There are some fat non-amblitory people out there.

"Must be 210 pounds or less, able to walk up a flight of stairs, sit down and it up without help, and be of sound mind and not freak out."

 

[Geico266]

That is apparently clear only to you.

Again, probably. I can certainly think out side the box.

It is interesting the only way you can think to promote aviation is to give out rides like an ammusement park. Promoting a ride in an experimental airplane as a charitable event is good publicity and creates "buzz". Why not loosen restrictions on useage of experiments like RVs to allow more public acceptance? To restrict them sends a message to the public experimental are somehow less safe. That is simply not true.

I promise, no overhead breaks with non flying passengers.

 

[silver-eagle]

How about hosting an event at the local airport with burgers and dogs and a can drive for the money. you can offer free airplane rides. Get the local FBO to host the field day, some local businesses to donate product, and hold your auction (for the rest of the stuff) there. This exposes people to the services the GA airport offers (air medical, CG, police,etc) and gets you flying people. You can probably get some other local pilots to help.
A win for everyone.
Check out Corvettes Conquer Cancer. Gate City Corvettes usually hold an event at a hangar in Nashua NH every year.

 

[silver-eagle]

The EAA Young Eagles program doesn't work as a recruiting or membership drive. I would guess they get probably 1 to 2% of the kids flown to continue with aviation. At the current numbers, that would probably be about 18-30,000 who went on to get a private pilots, and even less to join the EAA. I always thought it was more about exposing children and their parents to aviation. The more people know about something, the less they will complain about it. Show it's not all rich people with expensive toys goofing around and you get support for your airport. Show them there is real value in aviation and you just might save that airport from the next housing developer.
The EAA does have a program for continuing the children in aviation but you can say that about anything. To survive, your organization, even charitable ones, need to sustain growth. Look at the American Legion or the VFW. They have extended their memberships to include families of vets. USAA does that too. You need to adapt and that's what EAA has done.
AOPA had a mentor program. They included flying children. Had a great package to send the first time flyer with video tapes, hats, and other souvenirs. I suspect they found that spending $100 on each new flyer and only getting 1-2% to continue wasn't worth the expense. Now they sell wine.
Adapt, improvise, overcome. If you don't change, you fad away. Treading water in this environment doesn't work. It is also why many businesses are using travelzoo, living social, and groupon to sell their business.

 

[flyingron]

No, it isn't. It's a program designed to get young people interested in aviation. The possible future revenues from possible future EAA membership is not part of the thought process.

Well only indirectly. The thought is that if we don't get younger people interested in aviation the hobby (and then the association) will die out.
The median age is way up in the old fart range anyhow.

 

[steingar]

Possibly, but my cynicism is due to not being able to legally help a deserving charitable situation when clearly, EAA, Sporties, others are bending the rules also.

You've already been told that you can do exactly what you want in a certificated aircraft. The fact that you are unwilling to do so suggests you are far more concerned about your aircraft than in the disposition of the child you keep discussing.