Charging for Demo flights SLSA.

[bluesideup]

Hi Everyone.
Is an LSA dealer / owner able to legally charge for Demos, Scenic flights rides with Commercial license and 3rd Class medical, under part 91, at all or some amount?
Looking at 91.327 the answer is No. Under 91.501 Yes, under certain conditions.
Thank you. TV

 

[murphey]

Well, 91.501 states:

"operation of large airplanes of U.S. registry, turbojet-powered multiengine civil airplanes"

On the other hand, how is an LSA dealer supposed to sell an airplane if they can't demo it?

I always thought a sales demo (no charge) only needed a Private cert. For money, definitely the Commercial. Of course the LSA world is different. I know there's a difference between the E-LSA and the S-LSA regarding rental & instruction but can't cite the regs.

 

[poadeleted20]

As Murphey notes, 91.501 is part of Subpart F, which doesn't apply to LSA's, so nothing in there is relevant. However, as the OP notes, 91.327 says:

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category for compensation or hire except-
(1) To tow a glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in accordance with §91.309 of this chapter; or
(2) To conduct flight training.

...and a "sales demo" flight is not "flight training" unless conducted per the rules on flight training (CFI giving the training, 100-hour inspection, etc) and properly documented (logbook entry and TSA requirements covered). As for "scenic flights" in an LSA, that would be flatly prohibited by 91.327(a).

Of course, note of this prohibits such operations in an LSA-eligible aircraft with a Standard airworthiness certificate as long as all the regular rules on carrying passengers for hire are complied with, but I don't think that's the sort of LSA about which the OP is asking.

 

[Unit74]

I don't believe you need a commercial license to demo an aircraft for sale. I can't remember the reg, but when my plane was for sale I read that, and I could take a fee for the cost of the flight as well.

 

[Old Geek]

It's been my experience that LSA's are sold by free demo rides after the potential customer has been qualified as a serious prospect. I didn't have any trouble getting a couple of free demo rides before I bought my airplane.

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't believe you need a commercial license to demo an aircraft for sale. I can't remember the reg, but when my plane was for sale I read that, and I could take a fee for the cost of the flight as well.

You are correct that an aircraft salesman can demonstrate aircraft as part of his/her job with only a PP, but s/he must have 200 hours, and there is no authorization to charge the buyer for the demonstration flight. See 14 CFR 61.113(f). Bottom line is that there is nothing in the rules permitting someone to charge for a demo flight without further FAA approval.

 

[James331]

As Murphey notes, 91.501 is part of Subpart F, which doesn't apply to LSA's, so nothing in there is relevant. However, as the OP notes, 91.327 says:
...and a "sales demo" flight is not "flight training" unless conducted per the rules on flight training (CFI giving the training, 100-hour inspection, etc) and properly documented (logbook entry and TSA requirements covered). As for "scenic flights" in an LSA, that would be flatly prohibited by 91.327(a).

Of course, note of this prohibits such operations in an LSA-eligible aircraft with a Standard airworthiness certificate as long as all the regular rules on carrying passengers for hire are complied with, but I don't think that's the sort of LSA about which the OP is asking.

So you're saying you can't conduct flight training without a 100hr inspection?

 

[poadeleted20]

So you're saying you can't conduct flight training without a 100hr inspection?

Generally, yes, when you are providing both the plane and the training, as is the case here. However, if this is an S-LSA, no 100-hour is required. If it's a Standard plane being operated as an LSA, the 100-hour is required. See 91.409(b/c) for details.

 

[ejensen]

Demo was free. They even brought a new plane from the factory instead of using the trainer. I bought the plane.

 

[James331]

Generally, yes, when you are providing both the plane and the training, as is the case here. However, if this is an S-LSA, no 100-hour is required. If it's a Standard plane being operated as an LSA, the 100-hour is required. See 91.409(b/c) for details.

If the plane and CFI don't come from /work for the same place there is no need for a 100hr.

 

[frfly172]

Have 15 hours of demo flight time in many models of LSAs ,never was a charge. Only paid for I flight in a Jabiru,as a training flight,after having a free demo.

 

[poadeleted20]

If the plane and CFI don't come from /work for the same place there is no need for a 100hr.

True, but that's not relevant to this discussion where the OP would be providing both (training flights in an LSA to demonstrate the aircraft).

 

[James331]

True, but that's not relevant to this discussion where the OP would be providing both (training flights in an LSA to demonstrate the aircraft).

This is true, just saying you don't always need 100hr inspections for flight training, as was stated earlier.

 

[poadeleted20]

This is true, just saying you don't always need 100hr inspections for flight training, as was stated earlier.

Not by me, and not that I can find in this thread. I did refer to the relevant regulations to be considered, but I didn't say a 100-hour is always required for flight training.

 

[Tom-D]

Generally, yes, when you are providing both the plane and the training, as is the case here. However, if this is an S-LSA, no 100-hour is required. If it's a Standard plane being operated as an LSA, the 100-hour is required. See 91.409(b/c) for details.

Moot point when you are selling new aircraft. Ever see a NEW aircraft with over 100 hours?

 

[poadeleted20]

Moot point when you are selling new aircraft. Ever see a NEW aircraft with over 100 hours?

Not all aircraft being sold are new, and often the demo aircraft are flown several hundred hours as demonstrators by the sales rep before being sold at a discount. But even that is moot when discussing the OP's situation ("LSA dealer / owner able to legally charge for Demos, Scenic flights rides with Commercial license and 3rd Class medical, under part 91"). I just pointed out that doing it as a flight training intro ride was one possible alternative way to charge in that situation, but if you did, there were additional requirements to consider, of which 100-hour inspections was only one possibility.