Change in logbook carrying interpretation?

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Nadir

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Brian
Ran across a post on arfcom about a private pilot (not student) getting ramped by federal LEO. the LEO took exception to the fact that he wasn't carrying his pilot's logbook. Another arfcommer was able to locate a DHS document from April 2011 that listed the pilot's logbook as being required to be on-board the airplane for all general aviation operation. I just checked the online FARs and it doesn't look like the text has changed recently. Anybody in the know on what's going on? Is there a change in intepretation on the "reasonable request" portion of 61.51 that we now have to have our logbooks "readily available" like the pilot & medical certificates?
 
Which DHS document lists the logbook as required?
 
The DHS has no jurisdiction over whether a pilot is required to carry a logbook.

The thing to do in these situations is to say:

"Thank you officer. I disagree with the conclusion based on my training. If you believe that I am violating the law I welcome a citation to clear up the matter appropriately."

There you go - polite, and forces him to decide how he wants to handle it. And you no longer have to listen to him berating you.
 
That document has been posted here before but I can't find it. Basically covers suspicious behavior and things to watch for (like grass stains) to indicate illegal operation. Can't find it at the moment.

It claims that all pilots have to have a logbook, medical, pilot certificate, and 337's for any fuel system modification. Cites whatever regulation it is that says you have to show that stuff on request.
 
It looks to me like a case of inaccurate information being supplied to law enforcement.
 
Yes this is the case, as previously stated there IS an inaccurate document distributed by the department of homeland security to local LEO's stating that a pilot must have his logbook in possession..

It has been posted on here before.. a search should find it

As we all know, per the FAA rules you only need to have your pilot's license, photo ID and your medical when flying.
 
Officer, am I being detained?

Anything other than Yes means you turn around and go about your business -
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Not if you are flying under part 103

Not for sport pilot, glider, Part 103 and, I think, balloons.
Click to expand...

Yeah, there's a whole series of exceptions. Rec pilots outside of 50nm from home, sport pilot CFIs... If you're in any of those special conditions you may well need to have your logbook per the FARs anyways.
 
dell30rb said:
It has been posted on here before.. a search should find it
Click to expand...

My search-fu must be weak. Did a quick search and came up empty handed. Maybe now that there's 2 threads about it, it'll be easier to find. ;-)
 
LEO was wrong, plain and simple,

You need your certificate, photo ID, medical if applicable.

The plane needs the standard AROW plus a copy of the 337 if there is a fuel tank in the passenger or cargo area.
 
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It's hard enforcing a rule which doesn't exist. However, don't argue with someone carrying a badge and a gun and handcuffs and the authority to use them. Let them do their thing, and then let your attorney deal with the matter. The more they do to you, the more satisfaction you'll extract from them later on.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's hard enforcing a rule which doesn't exist. However, don't argue with someone carrying a badge and a gun and handcuffs and the authority to use them. Let them do their thing, and then let your attorney deal with the matter. The more they do to you, the more satisfaction you'll extract from them later on.
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Yes, at your own personal time and expense.

I disagree completely with your advice. LEOs doesn't have the authority to use "a badge and a gun and handcuffs" without probable cause; they can't run around detaining and arresting folks simply because they feel like it which, by the way, is the entire reason behind the concept of an armed citizenry. I would be interested to know exactly what law I am violating or show intent to violate by not carrying my pilot logbook.


JKG
 
timwinters said:
DEA's EPIC: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=25954&d=1336043036

CPB's AMOC: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=25955&d=1336043515

The first is not *too* terribly bad...the second...well...

Posted here earlier thanks to RAINSUX
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Not too bad?

"When conducting a ramp check , all pilots [FONT=Tahoma,Tahoma][FONT=Tahoma,Tahoma]MUST [/FONT][/FONT]provide any lawe nforcement officer the following documents upon demand, as mandated in 14CFR61.3or61.51:
1-Pilot’s Certificate/License (ACForm 8060-2).
2-Current Medical Certificate (FAAForm 8420-2).
3-Aircraft Registration (ACForm8050-3) or 8050-1 temporary 90-day registration aka "pinkslip".
4-Aircraft Airworthiness Certificate (Form 8200-2).
5-If major modifications have been made to the fuel system, an FAA Form-337 must be with the aircraft."


Five of the five things that "all pilot MUST provide" do not have to be carried by all pilots in all aircraft.

Willing to bet that no one is going to spend a night in jail because of this bogus information?
 
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> Willing to bet that no one is going to spend a night in jail because of this
> bogus information?

I will NOT take that bet.

I brought this info to AOPA's attention.
They declined to engage. I declined to renew,
for this matter and other insults.

Please suggest that OP on afcom contact AOPA and beg for them to engage.
(Har-dee-har-har-har).

Frankly; I'm guessing that he'll have more success bring his experience to
the attention of EAA and Senator Inouye (regardless of where he lives).
 
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JGoodish said:
Yes, at your own personal time and expense.

I disagree completely with your advice. LEOs doesn't have the authority to use "a badge and a gun and handcuffs" without probable cause; they can't run around detaining and arresting folks simply because they feel like it which, by the way, is the entire reason behind the concept of an armed citizenry. I would be interested to know exactly what law I am violating or show intent to violate by not carrying my pilot logbook.
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Well, then, next time you think a LEO is doing something beyond his/her authority, you just refuse to cooperate and tell them they can't do what they're doing. Let us know how it all turns out. Me? I'll let them dig themselves a hole and then let my attorney fill it in on their heads.
 
rainsux said:
> Willing to bet that no one is going to spend a night in jail because of this
> bogus information?

I will NOT take that bet.

I brought this info to AOPA's attention.
They declined to engage. I declined to renew,
for this matter and other insults.

Please suggest that OP on afcom contact AOPA and beg for them to engage.
(Har-dee-har-har-har).

Frankly; I'm guessing that he'll have more success bring his experience to
the attention of EAA and Senator Inouye (regardless of where he lives).
Click to expand...

Ron Levy said:
Well, then, next time you think a LEO is doing something beyond his/her authority, you just refuse to cooperate and tell them they can't do what they're doing. Let us know how it all turns out. Me? I'll let them dig themselves a hole and then let my attorney fill it in on their heads.
Click to expand...

What are you guys suggesting? Carry your logbook? If you don't have it with you, you obviously can't produce it on the spot if asked.
 
Sac Arrow said:
What are you guys suggesting? Carry your logbook?
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Nope.

If you don't have it with you, you obviously can't produce it on the spot if asked.
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That is correct. And if the LEO wants to make something of it, s/he is the one breaking the law, not me, and s/he is the one who will suffer the consequences, not me. But I'm not going to resist anything that LEO does, because two wrongs just puts us both in the wrong.
 
I've never met a LEO that wouldn't listen to reason.

Argue with them? no. but ask what law states you need what ever document he's looking for. yes.
 
Ron Levy said:
Well, then, next time you think a LEO is doing something beyond his/her authority, you just refuse to cooperate and tell them they can't do what they're doing. Let us know how it all turns out. Me? I'll let them dig themselves a hole and then let my attorney fill it in on their heads.
Click to expand...

I have every right to do so. What, exactly, do you think they will do, shoot me because I ask them for justification or refuse to talk to them?

Any good attorney will tell you to refuse to answer questions or provide information to LEOs absent the presence of qualified defense counsel. If you talk, even if you're innocent, the person digging the hole could be YOU.

LEOs work for you and me, not the other way around. Their job and their authority is to enforce the law as it is written, not as they arbitrarily see fit. They can choose to arrest me, but doing so without probable cause is likely a career-ending move. I suspect that most LEOs are more professional than that.


JKG
 
Ron Levy said:
Nope.

That is correct. And if the LEO wants to make something of it, s/he is the one breaking the law, not me, and s/he is the one who will suffer the consequences, not me. But I'm not going to resist anything that LEO does, because two wrongs just puts us both in the wrong.
Click to expand...

So what, exactly, do you propose to do in that situation? If you can't comply, stick out you hands and say, "cuff me"?

If you aren't wrong, and he is, then there aren't two wrongs. The only thing wrong here appears to be your thinking with regard to the authority of LEOs. It isn't an open-ended authority, and I have just as much a right to question their justification as they do to question me.


JKG
 
Tom-D said:
I've never met a LEO that wouldn't listen to reason.

Argue with them? no. but ask what law states you need what ever document he's looking for. yes.
Click to expand...

And it wouldn't hurt to drag out your dog-eared copy of FAR/AIM, explain to him that this is your bible and show him chapter and verse.
 
LEOs have been making-up aviation infractions for 40+ years. We need to get DHS and DEA to correct the docs they provide.

If you belong to AOPA, EAA, NBA, NAFI ... Call them. Heck, beg Senator Inouye to buy A clue for the LEOs.
 
JGoodish said:
So what, exactly, do you propose to do in that situation? If you can't comply, stick out you hands and say, "cuff me"?

If you aren't wrong, and he is, then there aren't two wrongs. The only thing wrong here appears to be your thinking with regard to the authority of LEOs. It isn't an open-ended authority, and I have just as much a right to question their justification as they do to question me.


JKG
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Sure, I'm willing to be arrested for not committing a crime. I could use the money
 
rainsux said:
LEOs have been making-up aviation infractions for 40+ years. We need to get DHS and DEA to correct the docs they provide.

If you belong to AOPA, EAA, NBA, NAFI ... Call them. Heck, beg Senator Inouye to buy A clue for the LEOs.
Click to expand...

:rofl::mad2:
 
> drag out your dog-eared copy of FAR/AIM

I'm wondering if perhaps the FAA General Counsel would write a guide/FAQ for LEOs ...

-doug
 
It might be more readable if the FAA counsel and the AOPA counsel collaborated on it.
 
Just threaten to call the FAA or FSDO... I am sure they will shrink with the same fear the rest of us do...
 
I've sent an email to a friend in AFS-800 (which writes and sets policy on Part 61) about what seems to be happening per the first post in this thread. We'll see what happens.
 
FWIW... I use my camera phone and take pictures of the last several pages of my logbook. Those pics get sync'd up to the Web (evernote, catch, etc). 'Good to have in case the logbook ever gets lost, and should provide enough info for any over-zealous bureaucrat.
 
I use the Camscanner app on the iPhone to scan pages of my logbook. Then upload it as a PDF to Dropbox and Foreflight. Works great.
 
JGoodish said:
Yes, at your own personal time and expense.

I disagree completely with your advice. LEOs doesn't have the authority to use "a badge and a gun and handcuffs" without probable cause; they can't run around detaining and arresting folks simply because they feel like it which, by the way, is the entire reason behind the concept of an armed citizenry. I would be interested to know exactly what law I am violating or show intent to violate by not carrying my pilot logbook.


JKG
Click to expand...


But unfortunately in real life they do and being defiant to a LEO is only going to cost you at least time and money. They are humans and you need to know how to dodge attitudes and resolve situations in a smart and prudent manner, ie. not start doing the lawyer act.
 
Skylane81E said:
Sure, I'm willing to be arrested for not committing a crime. I could use the money
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What money -- the thousands of dollars YOU will have to spend to defend yourself against bogus charges? The added expense of altered travel plans, lost work, extra travel, that sort of thing?

From your comment, I get the impression that you think you might get some sort of monetary damages awarded if you're arrested on bogus charges. As much as we'd like to think that might happen, I'd bet heavily against it. I know of a few people who have had bogus charges filed that were later dropped when it was shown that the officer and often prosecutor had no clue what they were talking about. You're doing well to get so much as an apology... it's usually more of a "Well, maybe you beat the rap this time, scumbag, but we'll get you next time".

I'm not willing to be arrested for not committing a crime. I'm also not willing to take extreme measures to avoid any chance of running afoul of an officer's distorted sense of what may or may not be legal. It's a conundrum. All you can do is hope that they will listen to reason, and in cases like this have something along to try to prove it. The problem is, they are generally convinced of their complete infallibility.
 
DaleB said:
What money -- the thousands of dollars YOU will have to spend to defend yourself against bogus charges? The added expense of altered travel plans, lost work, extra travel, that sort of thing?

From your comment, I get the impression that you think you might get some sort of monetary damages awarded if you're arrested on bogus charges. As much as we'd like to think that might happen, I'd bet heavily against it. I know of a few people who have had bogus charges filed that were later dropped when it was shown that the officer and often prosecutor had no clue what they were talking about. You're doing well to get so much as an apology... it's usually more of a "Well, maybe you beat the rap this time, scumbag, but we'll get you next time".

I'm not willing to be arrested for not committing a crime. I'm also not willing to take extreme measures to avoid any chance of running afoul of an officer's distorted sense of what may or may not be legal. It's a conundrum. All you can do is hope that they will listen to reason, and in cases like this have something along to try to prove it. The problem is, they are generally convinced of their complete infallibility.
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This.

There are numerous laws and procedures that LEO's can ignore/violate with no significant penalty to themselves. Sure, the case will get tossed if you have a competent attorney, but do you really want the enormous amount of pain that goes with it?
 
Skylane81E said:
LEO was wrong, plain and simple,

You need your certificate, photo ID, medical if applicable.

The plane needs the standard AROW plus a copy of the 337 if there is a fuel tank in the passenger or cargo area.
Click to expand...

Actually, there's no requirement for W either unless it's part of the O.
It was a pathetic attempt to make things fit a neat mnemonic.
 
flyingron said:
Actually, there's no requirement for W either unless it's part of the O.
It was a pathetic attempt to make things fit a neat mnemonic.
Click to expand...
That is FRon's personal opinion, and it is not shared by the FAA. If you don't have the empty weight and cg data aboard, the FAA considers you in violation. In particular, if you show up for a practical test without it, the test will end rapidly and unhappily.
 
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