Chandelles

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by falconkidding, Jan 3, 2018.

  1. falconkidding

    falconkidding Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Well i was assigned Chandelles to teach for my CFI stuff and I've run into a problem and my newbie cfi didn't quite explain it to my satisfaction. So how i've always done them is first 90 degrees 30 degrees bank full power and pitch up. At the 90 degree point bank rolls out pitch stays even until completion and this is where my problem lies. The book AFH 9-6 is saying as the vertical component of lift increases in the 2nd half of the maneuver backpressure will need to be released to maintain pitch attitude. All the lesson plans i've reviewed from people and inflight instruction has been to increase back pressure as airspeed keeps falling in the 2nd half to maintain pitch attitude.

    So whos right? It "works" the way i've been taught but thats contrary to the AFH.
     
  2. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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  3. catmandu

    catmandu Cleared for Takeoff

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    You are right. So right. Really, really right.

    Seriously, just fly the plane. The performance metric is maintaining pitch attitude in the second half of the turn, do what it takes.
     
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  4. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    You may have been typing quickly and didn’t fully explain, but I don’t particularly care for your textual description of a chandelle.

    Have you taken the FIA written test yet? There are questions about chandelles on there, or there used to be anyway.

    First 90 degrees of the maneuver is maximum power, fixed bank (30 degrees), and increasing pitch.

    Second 90 degrees would be fixed pitch, gradually reducing bank.

    I’ve never really thought much about control pressures, just do what it takes to maintain your pitch. As you slow I’d expect to need more backpressure though, because the controls become less effective at slower speeds.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  5. tlglenn

    tlglenn Line Up and Wait

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    At the 90 degree point you should be noting the relationship between the nose and the horizon. Keep looking outside to maintain that same pitch attitude for the second half of the maneuver. You'll be applying more and more back pressure as your airspeed decays. Don't start staring at the AI to maintain pitch attitude or you'll relax the back pressure prematurely when you stop looking outside (It's also difficult to look for other traffic if your eyes are inside).
     
  6. falconkidding

    falconkidding Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Sorry I kind of type a stream of stuff, and it runs together, so I wasn't very clear.
    In the 2nd half of the Chandelle when you have constant pitch attitude and changing bank. I've been locking down my pitch attitude at the 90 degree point and backpressure increases during the 2nd half (in order to keep that attitude) which is how its worked out in the air and in my lesson plan. So doing the maneuver isn't a problem. I'm more wondering why the airplane flying handbook says "As the rollout continues, the vertical component of lift increases; therefore, a slight release of elevator back pressure is required to keep the pitch attitude from increasing." Which is the opposite of what i've done in any plane ive flown. Is that just one of those things I should ignore?
     
  7. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    There's probably a point in the early stages of the rollout where the vertical component of lift increases faster than the angle of attack has to be increased due to decreasing airspeed.
     
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  8. oregonboy109

    oregonboy109 Line Up and Wait

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    That quote from the AFH is just over complicating the maneuver. I'd ignore it. In the second half just hold pitch attitude constant as you roll out. In order to maintain constant pitch attitude control pressures will increases as airspeed decreases.
     
  9. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Agree with the above commentary.

    You’ll never have time to notice the “increased lift” before the decaying airspeed forces more back-pressure as the elevator loses effectiveness.

    Yeah the nose will try come slightly further up at the very initial moments of starting to roll out, but it won’t last long enough to mean much compared to many seconds of needing more back pressure to hold the original pitch attitude.
     
  10. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Bunch of good answers. Maybe think of it this way, where is more lift, wings level or in a bank.
     
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