Champ or Cub under Bravo/Mode C?

Discussion in 'Home Builders and Sport Pilots' started by Terry M - 3CK (Chicago), May 16, 2016.

  1. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Filing Flight Plan

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    Ive been looking at Champs and Cubs. Seem perfect for the type of flying in my near term. Short local sight seeing flights with 1 child along, maybe grab some ice cream somewhere.

    I'd love to rent, but no LSA real close.

    In the Champs and Cubs, many seem to have an intercom temporarily installed. Is that battery powered?

    Do they have an external antenna for a handheld? Can the tower hear you/pick your transmission up?

    What about approach or center? Or is that rig mostly for nearby / in the traffic pattern.

    Last question - are planes Mfrd before 194x exempt from the Mode C requirement under the Bravo veil? If not, are you just banned?

    I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to make it work close to home. There's a Bushcat about 45 minutes from home. I'm hoping to get up in that in the next month or so, but 20 minutes each way beats 45 minutes.
     
  2. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Most of the questions: It depends.

    Mode c - depends on if there is an electrical system installed - not build dates. See 91.215

     
  3. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    My understanding of 91.215 is that you can operate within the mode c veil and under (or over) a bravo so long as you don't have an engine-driven electrical system.
     
  4. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Filing Flight Plan

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    Wow. Now, is that foolish (I know see and avoid etc.). Seems maybe careless to be under busy bravo with no mode C.

    Thank you for posting. I'll pull the FARs.
     
  5. brcase

    brcase Cleared for Takeoff

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    Intercom is typically battery powered 9volt battery.

    Some may have external antenna installed for handheld. (can be installed if it doesn't have it)

    Transmission/receive range is usually fairly limited due to low power handheld and un-shielded ignition on the engine. If shielded ignition has been installed it does improve.

    If not originally certified or modified to have an electrical system, they are currently exempt in the Mode C Veil. Who knows what will happen with the rules after 2020, FAA as already been exploring the possibility of removing the exemption for gliders.

    Brian
    CFIIG/ASEL
     
  6. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    IIRC, there is parallel verbiage in 91.225:
    https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/faq/#o2
     
  7. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I flew for years with a battery powered Sigtronics SPO intercom until I got the panel mount installed. I bought it originally when I was a renter and not all planes had intercoms.
     
  8. champ driver

    champ driver Pre-takeoff checklist

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    1 Anything you power in a Champ or Cub without an electrical system has to be battery powered, radio, intercom, GPS. Unless you have a wind powered generator mounted usually under the belly in between the gear legs.
    2 An external antenna works much better than the rubber ducky that comes with a handheld radio.
    3 Use it for whatever you want, sometimes the range is somewhat limited. The more you use it the more you will use up your battery, there is a finite life to it, it's not like having an alternator with unlimited electrical life.
    4 91.215,
    (3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D,section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted—
    (i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and
    (ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and


    (5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider—

    I've been operating under the Mode C veil for years and I will continue to do so. It is NOT foolish or careless!

    If you're looking to rent a Cub or Champ, it may difficult to find someone that will let you rent because of insurance.
    Something like a Cub or Champ may not be the best plane for you with a little kid, remember you have to prop it too, that's not something I would do with a little kid in there alone.
     
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  9. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Filing Flight Plan

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    Hmmm. You're saying I have to be comfortable with a 9 yo at the controls if it gets away from me? Good insight. Anything similar, LSA, with a starter?

    Do you have an external antenna? Do you ever fly with kids?
     
  10. champ driver

    champ driver Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Comfortable or not, it's illegal. There has to be some kind of a pilot at the controls. Would YOU be comfortable risking your kids life that way?
    Yes I've been running an external antenna and it works fine, it gets me in and out of my Class D airport, and any others I go to.
     
  11. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    What rule is that?

    Tie the tail down with a release you can pop from the cockpit if you are uncomfortable.

    OTOH lots of E-AB low budget stuff available with electrical systems (like my ride) - but then you will need the transponder / ads-b / blah blah blah, but you avoid at least some of the "type certificated" maintenance nonsense.
     
  12. champ driver

    champ driver Pre-takeoff checklist

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  13. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Filing Flight Plan

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    How do people fly solo? (Honest question - not argumentative).
     
  14. champ driver

    champ driver Pre-takeoff checklist

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    There are ways to tie it down while propping it, otherwise be smart and discrete.
     
  15. N3368K

    N3368K Line Up and Wait

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    Airplane Flying Manual isn't regulatory. It is the only document specifically addressing hand propping process.

    I fly my Cub under MEM Class B all the time. When I was based at a Class D, I used a King KX-99. Nothing foolish about it. There are 3-4 Cubs on our field at any time.
     
  16. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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    Forget being discreet. Be smart. Tie it down if you're hand propping solo. Nothing illegal about that.
     
  17. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Really?

    Are you aware of one single case where someone got busted under "Careless or reckless" for simply not having a pilot at the controls? One?
     
  18. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Set the brakes, flip the prop, get in, fly away. Happens every day at airports all over the country.

    tying down the tail is a good idea, but not required by any regulation.
     
  19. N3368K

    N3368K Line Up and Wait

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    Most Cubs do not have parking brakes to set though...they can be fitted with later master cylinders reservoirs/cones. Mine has been modified, as has my brothers.

    Correct hand propping is still a big argument on the Cub board too though.
     
  20. champ driver

    champ driver Pre-takeoff checklist

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  21. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Filing Flight Plan

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    Have you flown with anyone under 10? How do you do it? Or you just don't do it?
     
  22. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach PoA Supporter

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  23. champ driver

    champ driver Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Re-read my original answer to his question about leaving a kid at the controls while propping. No where was it mentioned that he was going to tie it down first. In my opinion, with only chocks and relying on a kid left at the controls, if a Fed on the ramp saw that, I would bet that you would get a violation. That was why I said THAT was illegal, no where else did I say it's illegal to prop a plane alone. Geoffrey, the way you prop a plane is perfectly fine and safe, I did not say you were illegal.
    In my 5th post I said if it was tied down and a kid was in the back you would probably get a violation, I really meant only NOT tied down.

    I've been propping my plane since before '85, I try and be safe and not take chances. I'm not going to tell you how to do you own propping, that's your business.
    Frankly I have too many certificates to risk by having someone with no training inside unless it's tied down securely.
    It's not how you read 91.13, it's how the Feds interpret them that counts. Anyone can prop a plane all day and it's no problem, it's when an accident happens, that's when the Feds will look for an excuse to violate you.
     
  24. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Filing Flight Plan

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    @champ driver Have you taken young people up in your Champ? Say 7-10 YO? If yes, and the tail is tied down with a mechanism allowing you to release it from the cockpit, does that seem kosher?

    I've flown with my son twice. Then essentially quit flying. I'm looking for practical advice.
     
  25. champ driver

    champ driver Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Terry, what you proposed seems fine. I only wanted to open your eyes to some consequences involved with propping.
    I can't remember the last time I've had a kid in my champ, I probably had someone prop us.
    Currently my Champ is under restoration.
     
  26. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Got it.
    There is that - If they want your ass, they will find a way to get your ass.
     
  27. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    What if you're a CFI giving dual to your 9 year old? :D
     
  28. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack Line Up and Wait

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    Class B is busy... under class B is not always busy and if you're under their airspace, why is it careless?
     
  29. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Agree with ya Jack! And I flew outa ATL for 24 years. So there, lol.
     
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  30. Jimmy cooper

    Jimmy cooper En-Route

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    I've flown taildraggers without starters off and on for lots of years. Used to be that anyone standing around knew how to prop a tail dragger. No more. Most pilots have no idea how to prop one. Scared to death of propping one. To do it correctly do not have anyone other than a taildragger pilot in the cockpit and have it TIED DOWN! Chocks are not enough if you set the throttle above idle by accident, which can happen even to " an old pro" . It can jump the chocks and cause big trouble. These types of accidents are numerous involving pilots of all types of taildraggers and hours flown. As for radios. You need an external antenna connected to a decent handheld. It will take you anywhere you probably need to go.
     
  31. Jimmy cooper

    Jimmy cooper En-Route

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    If your a CFI you should know better than to leave the kid in the cockpit if something goes wrong and the airplane gets away....( which they sometimes do) the airplane could easily be destroyed and he could die. Anyone I used to fly them with would consider this this question with wonder. Amazement.
     
  32. Jimmy cooper

    Jimmy cooper En-Route

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    Correction: I should have said, "either a taildragger certified pilot at the controls while you prop or securely tied down with no one in the airplane." Certainly not a nine year old!
     
  33. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Reckon you didn't notice the big grin eh? :rolleyes:
     
  34. VanDy

    VanDy Cleared for Takeoff

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    only under, not over. see 91.215 (3)ii

    My little one (5) either sits about 20 feet away in the grass until i can get to the door and call her over so she can have my complete attention while shes walking, or I sit her inside while I prop it from behind with the door open and all the controls with in reach.

    See above, how much do you trust your kid?

    all the time. Not many people at my private airport to help.
     
  35. Jimmy cooper

    Jimmy cooper En-Route

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    Little Taildraggers without starters have been flown since the mid thirtys by pilots who have had no help in starting them . They were usually trained by someone with high time in them who taught them to be very cautious of the prop. Most of the time at smaller airports there is no one around to help or you would not want to ask them as you know they don't know how to prop one. If you've ever stood at the tail of one while the engine is run up by a qualified pilot and you tried to hold it from moving forward while he advances the throttle everything becomes crystal clear. High time instructors should be utilized at all times. I've read others posts by van. He is well informed and has lots of hours in them . I'd try to find someone like him if I were beginning.
     
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  36. N3368K

    N3368K Line Up and Wait

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    Van is an amateur rookie. :rolleyes:

    I'd let him fly my Cub though. :)
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2016
  37. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I once went took a lesson in a Cub that was based under the SFO class B. It had some kind of battery operated com radio in it.
     
  38. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Filing Flight Plan

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    Well, y'all are passionate. I'm worried about someone walking in to a prop too.

    I appreciate the knowledge shared here, as I am inexperienced.

    Anyway, it's a pipe dream. I can't commute 45 min each way when I have 3 kids and work my hours.

    It was fun to dream for a bit.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2016
  39. VanDy

    VanDy Cleared for Takeoff

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    On my way! Leave the hangar open!
     
  40. tinerj

    tinerj Line Up and Wait

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    Back to the radio. I have a hand held clipped to the instrument panel with the rubber ducky antenna sticking up above the panel. Reception is fine for getting AWOS from 10 to 15 miles out, and a D tower reported 5 x 5 when I did a radio check 10 miles out. Any one in the pattern can hear radio calls without a problem.