CFI's: Would You Advise Your Student to Fly with a Broken Attitude Indicator?

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
884
Display Name
Display name:
VWGhiaBob
Here's the situation: Tonight I was set to go on my third recent solo. I start the plane and the attitude indicator is clearly not working, displaying a sign that says "vacuum." It's not moving, and stuck off to one side.

I text my CFI. The response, "You don't need an attitude indicator for VFR."

Since I'm PIC and still new at this, I decide not to fly, because I"M not comfortable flying a plane that has a known issue. Who knows? There might be a larger issue.

Other CFI's out there, would you encourage an inexperienced pilot to take off solo with a known vacuum / attitude indicator issue? Am I being a wimp and too cautious?
 
I took the PPL private ride including the IFR demo in a 172 without an altitude gyro. In order to reach the examiner's airport I had to fly a 150 nm X/C. Maybe I'm the wrong guy to ask.

VWGhiaBob said:
Here's the situation: Tonight I was set to go on my third recent solo. I start the plane and the attitude indicator is clearly not working, displaying a sign that says "vacuum." It's not moving, and stuck off to one side.

I text my CFI. The response, "You don't need an attitude indicator for VFR."

Since I'm PIC and still new at this, I decide not to fly, because I"M not comfortable flying a plane that has a known issue. Who knows? There might be a larger issue.

Other CFI's out there, would you encourage an inexperienced pilot to take off solo with a known vacuum / attitude indicator issue? Am I being a wimp and too cautious?
Click to expand...
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Here's the situation: Tonight I was set to go on my third recent solo. I start the plane and the attitude indicator is clearly not working, displaying a sign that says "vacuum." It's not moving, and stuck off to one side.

I text my CFI. The response, "You don't need an attitude indicator for VFR."

Since I'm PIC and still new at this, I decide not to fly, because I"M not comfortable flying a plane that has a known issue. Who knows? There might be a larger issue.

Other CFI's out there, would you encourage an inexperienced pilot to take off solo with a known vacuum / attitude indicator issue? Am I being a wimp and too cautious?
Click to expand...

Was it required equipment? If not, was it properly covered and placarded as INOP? It's not necessary for VFR flight but your instructor at least owes it to you to do things by the book. Was the DG INOP as well?
 
Absolutely not, especially your third time going solo. I would actually be worried if you chose not to make an issue of it. You made the right call. When you get more hours, a few hundred, it would be ok to make that call and have that safety comfort level.
 
You say "tonight"... Was it dark? If so, hell no!
 
First off I'm not a CFI so feel free to disregard my answer but, at night maybe not. During the day, I can't see why a attitude indicator failure would be any issue at all. If you can see the horizon, you have the best attitude indicator in the world available to you.

With your experience level you probably did the right thing but as you gain some flight time these indicators become more of a reassurance that your eyes at not deceiving you, rather than indicators of your exact flying. However, if you are not comfortable getting into an airplane do to something not working, you don't have to go and can always wait to fly another day.
 
When I instructed for a flight school, we had several 150's with the AI/HI removed for use for student T&G's and spin training because those events beat up the gyros too much. If all you are doing it beating up the pattern, it shouldn't be an issue, but as noted above, the inoperative equipment requirements of 91.213 should be complied with before you fly it.
 
You're both correct. You were not comfortable, therefore you shouldn't have flown and your instructor was correct that it was legal to fly (as long as it was placarded). I wouldn't hold anything against him for saying you could fly.
 
jspilot said:
During the day, I can't see why a attitude indicator failure would be any issue at all.
Click to expand...

Except that Bob didn't know what caused the failure (at least he didn't say he did).

If it was the AI itself that failed then, sure, no big fizz.

But, what if the teeth of the vacuum pump had sheared off and were laying somewhere in the engine where they didn't belong?

jonnyjetprop said:
and your instructor was correct that it was legal to fly (as long as it was placarded). I wouldn't hold anything against him for saying you could fly.
Click to expand...
I would, if he (and the mechanic) didn't know the root cause of the failure. If they had diagnosed the situation and signed off on it, then I agree with you.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the comments. :yes: This site rocks.

My concern was not just about this gauge, but that one gauge with a vacuum issue could be a symptom of a larger issue...which I'm not qualified to diagnose.

And no, it was not marked INOP. And no, I wasn't going on a trip, so no flight plan. And no, there was no mechanic available.

And no, this was not at night, so yes, I could have done fine without it (though I still use the ball to get the rudder right).

At the end of the day, as PIC, I felt that without an available mechanic, I didn't know what was causing the failure, and feared there was a chance it could be something else.

No go.

Can I fly a plane with an INOP attitude indicator? Hell yes...I look outside the plane anyway and this isn't IFR. Will I fly a plane that just had an attitude indicator go bad? Hell no. Not now, and not ever...even with more experience...at least until I'm sure that's all that's wrong! :nono:
 
wabower said:
I took the PPL private ride including the IFR demo in a 172 without an altitude gyro. In order to reach the examiner's airport I had to fly a 150 nm X/C. Maybe I'm the wrong guy to ask.
Click to expand...

I didn't have one either, Wayne.:mad2::D
 
VWGhiaBob said:
At the end of the day, as PIC, I felt that without an available mechanic, I didn't know what was causing the failure, and feared there was a chance it could be something else.
Click to expand...

And in the process learned a valuable lesson in ADM...sometimes that voice saying "um...somethin' ain't right here" is one you should listen to.

As always, you're better off on the ground wishing you were in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground.
 
It wasn't placarded inop.

The root cause was unknown.

Find a new CFI.
 
Robert, it is for reasons such as this that a man in your position owns his own C150.

And to everyone else, GhiaBob is NOT a new student pilot. He is a PIC who has been away for ....30 years?
 
I have been away for 40 years, with only 15 hours of recent instruction (plus a 5 hour cross country) and 80 hours total. In that context, I am more of a student pilot than a PIC in my own mind. Only last week, I left the pattern for the first time by myself in 40 years.

And Bruce...as usual, you hit the nail on the head. I'm thinking the only solution for me is a well-maintained 172...one that I can maintain to my own standards.
 
Yeah, needs to be checked out and placarded.

Before I acquired sufficient spare stock to keep gyros on the shelf (not the cheapest things in the world) if a gyro or vac pump was reported dead I would go, check for hoses popped off and issue placards as needed. The plane would be released for VFR flight until the exchange unit arrived.

Also, as the mechanic I make a point NEVER to try to convince a pilot to go with inop equipment. I will council on the legality but if the PIC wants to stay on the ground that is the end of it.
 
I would, neither encourage nor, discourage the flight if the DG is working, and it's day VMC conditions where the horizon is easily discernable. If the DG is working it indicates that it isn't the vacuum pump that's puked out, but the AI itself. This happened to me early on, and I slapped a sticky note on it saying "INOP"
 
Pray tell why a VFR student needs an attitude indicator? Other than the MEL [which is part generally applicable to a single engine piston] there is no requirement of one.

If a student needs an AI they how did all those guys learn to fly in Luscombes and Cubs back in the day?

And heck, we're all students if we're smart - there is something learn every moment behind a stick . . . if you are looking for it -

edit {and Robert - looks like you have an issue with the airplanes available for rent - and yet get going back to the same well - mebbe you need to actually stop that and go find a club, a different rental or a buy yourself an airplane or a partnership. FWIW, at night I would not take an airplane with a known bad AI = especially out your way given the chance you might to divert for IFR ceilings. . . . esp since you are rusty and VFR only)
 
Last edited:
Commanche Pilot...again, the issue is NOT that I or any pilot would need an attitude indicator for VFR. It's that a newly broken indicator just might, as others have pointed out, be a symptom of other issues that could snowball into something more serious. For me, I have a good mechanical understanding, but I'm not a mechanic. So my decision is, let a mechanic look at it to make sure that's all it is. I'm sure others here with more hands-on aviation mechanical experience are more than qualified to diagnose the problem and conclude the plane is safe to fly.

I'm not.
 
Last edited:
What else could it be other than what has been covered? Point is you don't need it, but if you are not comfortable with it then that is you choice. Your comfort level will grow im sure of it, or you won't fly as much. Other than the placard of being inop, I don't see an issue with it during good day VFR. Maybe a cub is in your future.
 
Last edited:
VWGhiaBob said:
Commanche Pilot...again, the issue is NOT that I or any pilot would need an attitude indicator for VFR. It's that a newly broken indicator just might, as others have pointed out, be a symptom of other issues that could snowball into something more serious. For me, I have a good mechanical understanding, but I'm not a mechanic. So my decision is, let a mechanic look at it to make sure that's all it is. I'm sure others here with more hands-on aviation mechanical experience are more than qualified to diagnose the problem and conclude the plane is safe to fly.

I'm not.
Click to expand...

I never scolded you for not accepting the aircraft - just pointed out that VFR you don't need it - and then agreed with you further along that aircraft in such a condition may suggest that the intelligent thing to do is stop renting.
 
Depends on the nature of the solo flight the student is launching on. Pattern work? Sure. Long cross country? No.
 
GCA319 said:
Depends on the nature of the solo flight the student is launching on. Pattern work? Sure. Long cross country? No.
Click to expand...

Why not? I was a new private pilot and flew from Z98 to GLR with an inop AI. Follow 131 until you can see Houghton Lake to the NE, fly towards that, follow 127/75 to GLR. So easy a caveman could do it. VFR you are looking OUTSIDE. Check heading, check altitude. AI is more or less useless on a good VMC day.

Bob isn't a student pilot.
 
flyingmoose said:
What else could it be other than what has been covered? Point is you don't need it, but if you are not comfortable with it then that is you choice. Your comfort level will grow im sure of it, or you won't fly as much. Other than the placard of being inop, I don't see an issue with it during good day VFR. Maybe a cub is in your future.
Click to expand...

About the only thing I can think that might cause a failure of the vac that would be a hazard to VFR flight would be a mulched gear in the accessory drive.

A quick peak at the shear section of the vac pump while moving the prop would confirm.
 
I flew with a broken attitude indicator for months before I finally had it fixed. Expensive too, the old one is now household decoration. Didn't use it any more after the repair than before.

A good thing to have just in case you blunder into IMC, otherwise not needed at all VFR. Plenty of planes out that that don't have them at all.
 
steingar said:
I flew with a broken attitude indicator for months before I finally had it fixed. Expensive too, the old one is now household decoration. Didn't use it any more after the repair than before.

A good thing to have just in case you blunder into IMC, otherwise not needed at all VFR. Plenty of planes out that that don't have them at all.
Click to expand...

you obviously have not flown over the desert at night, or in the haze layer in the south or the northeast and midwest in summer . . .

In 2001 I was flying in a rental with a friend in August, and were going to IJD in CT. ASOS was reporting 4 miles visibility- the GPS was showing us 3 miles from the field - which is the ramp in front of the FBO - which is about 1 mile from the end of runway 27 - so we were 2 miles from the end of the runway were looking to land on and nothing but white. . . and attitude indicator comes in helpful there to avoid having to scan the DG and the T&B . . .
 
comanchepilot said:
you obviously have not flown over the desert at night, or in the haze layer in the south or the northeast and midwest in summer . . .
Click to expand...

He probably hasn't, but I have. But we aren't talking a night desert flight, we're talking day VMC. Even the haze doesn't require an AI. Look down, do I see green? OK, I'm good.
 
EdFred said:
He probably hasn't, but I have. But we aren't talking a night desert flight, we're talking day VMC. Even the haze doesn't require an AI. Look down, do I see green? OK, I'm good.
Click to expand...

Honestly he probably has, I'm not even 100nm away and we get that kind of haze
 
comanchepilot said:
you obviously have not flown over the desert at night, or in the haze layer in the south or the northeast and midwest in summer . . .
Click to expand...

My, isn't our horse high today?

comanchepilot said:
In 2001 I was flying in a rental with a friend in August, and were going to IJD in CT. ASOS was reporting 4 miles visibility- the GPS was showing us 3 miles from the field - which is the ramp in front of the FBO - which is about 1 mile from the end of runway 27 - so we were 2 miles from the end of the runway were looking to land on and nothing but white. . . and attitude indicator comes in helpful there to avoid having to scan the DG and the T&B . . .
Click to expand...

An instrument rating would have been a bit more helpful, since you were in IMC, something I myself avoid with a bit of a passion.

I have to admit, when contemplating flying over northern Michigan at night (not entirely different from your desert) I did check the AI, since I figured I'd need it. But for most situations in my environment that qualify as VFR I don't, and if I actually need it it means I've blundered into someplace I really shouldn't be. Some of us don't do that.
 
I would tell the student not to fly it. Until I knew *WHY* the attitude indicator wasn't working I wouldn't be sending a student up. Once I knew and it were properly labeled then it'd be an non-issue.
 
It would depend on the weather, but if the weather is good and its daytime then I don't see any reason not to go flying with an inoperative AI. Lots of aircraft don't even have them. If the vacuum system was dead as well then you don't have a DG. Also not necessary for VFR flight, but I wouldn't send a student on a x/c without a working DG if that's what they were used to.

I don't really see how a bad vacuum system or a bad AI would indicate an underlying problem if the motor runs well, passes all pre-flight checks etc...

The vacuum pump is driven by the motor but the system is designed in such a way that if the vac pump fails, its not going to take the motor with it.

I did 360nm last weekend in an airplane with no vacuum or electrical system. it was fine :wink2:
 
Last edited:
jesse said:
I would tell the student not to fly it. Until I knew *WHY* the attitude indicator wasn't working I wouldn't be sending a student up. Once I knew and it were properly labeled then it'd be an non-issue.
Click to expand...

Yeah If I was the instructor I would check the plane out myself, use the opportunity to give a quick lesson on the vacuum system and I wouldn't send someone off without a placard on the broken instrument.

I was flying a C152 in the pattern with a bad AI (or vac pump) and when I pulled the throttle back the AI literally rolled over. Even though I was in good VMC it gave me a spatial disorientation feeling for a second or two.
 
dell30rb said:
... I wouldn't send a student on a x/c without a working DG if that's what they were used to.
Click to expand...

I had an HSI fail in flight as a solo student. Total nonissue. You just fly the mag compass. It has errors, but they are pretty obvious if you try to watch one while turning.

The AI was fine, so it clearly wasn't a vacuum problem. The HSI just vibrated like mad and didn't follow turns.
 
This happened to me recently. I scrubbed the flight since I didn't know at the time if it was just the AI or the entire vacuum system.

VWGhiaBob said:
Here's the situation: Tonight I was set to go on my third recent solo. I start the plane and the attitude indicator is clearly not working, displaying a sign that says "vacuum." It's not moving, and stuck off to one side.

I text my CFI. The response, "You don't need an attitude indicator for VFR."

Since I'm PIC and still new at this, I decide not to fly, because I"M not comfortable flying a plane that has a known issue. Who knows? There might be a larger issue.

Other CFI's out there, would you encourage an inexperienced pilot to take off solo with a known vacuum / attitude indicator issue? Am I being a wimp and too cautious?
Click to expand...
 
Do ya'll not have a DG and a vacuum gauge?

Hell, an AI is a secondary source for almost every IFR maneuver.

I probably would have scratched the flight too when I was green. Though, had my CFI told me it was OK, I would have called GO. But, I suspect my relationship with my CFI was somewhat different than most.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top