CFI screening procedures for a club?

[flyingcheesehead]

Hi folks,

I'm trying to develop procedures for screening CFI's for our club, and I'd like some ideas.

What brought this about: Last year, the BOD adopted a rule stating that any CFI's that don't work for the local FBO must be specifically approved to fly in our airplanes, and must carry their own insurance. (This, after many years where members could use any CFI they wanted to with no restriction and no prior approval.) There weren't any specific incidents that caused this, just a general worry about somehow having an accident and being responsible for a hull loss and/or liability.

Well - I'm now the VP and safety officer for the club, and reviewing some of the things that were done in my 18-month absence from the BOD, this being one of them.

I called our insurance carrier (Avemco) and spoke with a VP, who stated that there is absolutely no scenario where the club would be left uncovered, even if members flew with uninsured CFI's. In fact, in a refreshing bit of honesty from an insurance person, he said that based on their experiences, we would be better off screening our CFI's instead of requiring insurance coverage.

Now, I'm needing to figure out exactly how this screening process should work, and sadly Avemco did NOT have any examples of how it should be done! (Doh!) So, I'm wondering if y'all have any suggestions.

FWIW, we're an equity club, we own our airplanes. Safety is obviously paramount, but in addition it would be nice to also judge how well CFI's will teach ownership-related issues - For example, overuse of brakes on the DA40.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

 

[TMetzinger]

I think the end result you are looking for is that, in the event of an accident while an instructional flight is going on in a club aircraft:
The club is fully covered by the club policy for liability.
The aircraft is fully covered by the club policy for hull damage.
The occupants are fully covered by the club policy for hull damage and liability (i.e. no subrogation).

What I've seen other clubs do is screen their CFIs by having them fly with the club safety officer as a sanity check that they can safely give instruction and supervise, and that the CFI must be a club member (so that the CFI is thus a named insured). CFIs who teach a minimum number of hours a year have their club dues waived.

CFIs who AREN'T club members expose themselves to subrogation from the club's insurance, and should thus carry their own coverage.

End result is that a CFI who wants to teach in your club airplanes either joins the club (and is covered) or doesn't (and is potentially liable), but the club is covered in any case.

In your shoes, I'd require an annual check flight for any CFI that hasn't flown/instructed in club airplanes for a certain number of hours - maybe 15 or so - in the previous 12 months. This could be done in conjunction with an advanced (not primary) student lesson where a club rep like a safety officer rides in the back and observes.

 

[Ted]

It might make sense to do something staged, depending on the training.

For primary training, require the CFI to have a certain of number of hours in the plane. That'd be logical.

For instrument and flight reviews, I don't think it should matter.

Logic? In primary, the instructor will need to do landings, etc. and should be more familiar with the plane. In instrument and flight reviews, he shouldn't need to as much. And that way, the CFI can get some experience with the new aircraft, and might be able to do primary instruction later.

It sounds like in either case, you're covered no matter who the CFI is. If the CFI doesn't have his own insurance, that's his problem.

If I was told I needed a checkout with another CFI prior to instruction in the plane, it'd have to be a plane that was a lot more complicated than a 182 or a Diamond.

 

[TMetzinger]

If I was told I needed a checkout with another CFI prior to instruction in the plane, it'd have to be a plane that was a lot more complicated than a 182 or a Diamond.

Disagree. If you've never given instruction in a 182 or DA40 before, then you probably DO need a checkout.

Now, if you can show experience in the type, then a checkout in just one airplane should suffice for both.

 

[Ted]

Disagree. If you've never given instruction in a 182 or DA40 before, then you probably DO need a checkout.

Now, if you can show experience in the type, then a checkout in just one airplane should suffice for both.

If it was a plane I'd never flown before, I'd want to fly with someone for a few takeoffs and landings. If it's something like a Lancair, that would be another matter, but Lancairs will kill you.

But requiring a full checkout (which I'm betting they'd expect me to pay for) in a 182, DA40, PA28, or the like? No. They can find a different instructor if that's the case, but that's just my personal view. They simply aren't hard airplanes to fly. Then again, I'm used to flying twins loaded to gross up to a Chieftain. It'd be different for a CFI for whom a 182 was an upgrade.

 

[TMetzinger]

I see our disconnect. When I say "a checkout" for a CFI, I'm talking less than an hour. And as far as paying for it goes, that's an operating cost that gets passed on to the students one way or another.

 

[Ted]

I should add, I'm not against being trained for new types. When I went to the Navajo (and now to the really really loud machine), my first step is to read the FlightSafety/SimCom and POH cover-to-cover. Then I sit in the plane for about 30 minutes and just get myself used to where everything is located, and walk myself through procedures and steps. If anything, I ask for more training than the boss wants to bother giving me, because he's happy with how I handle it.

But those are not a 182 or a DA40.

 

[Ted]

I see our disconnect. When I say "a checkout" for a CFI, I'm talking less than an hour. And as far as paying for it goes, that's an operating cost that gets passed on to the students one way or another.

Ok, that would work for me. So long as I'm getting paid, then I'm happy. I'd probably be willing to do the checkout itself for free if I thought that it would lead to enough paying customers.

Typically when I fly with a client in a new type (who is already flying that type, and has come to me for help with improving skills), I watch them do a few landings and then do a few myself. Then when we go up to do stalls, I'll do one first, and then have them do it. What's scary is that most of my clients were never made to do stalls in a new type by the person who gave them a checkout.

 

[jesse]

Hi folks,

I'm trying to develop procedures for screening CFI's for our club, and I'd like some ideas.

What brought this about: Last year, the BOD adopted a rule stating that any CFI's that don't work for the local FBO must be specifically approved to fly in our airplanes, and must carry their own insurance. (This, after many years where members could use any CFI they wanted to with no restriction and no prior approval.) There weren't any specific incidents that caused this, just a general worry about somehow having an accident and being responsible for a hull loss and/or liability.

Well - I'm now the VP and safety officer for the club, and reviewing some of the things that were done in my 18-month absence from the BOD, this being one of them.

I called our insurance carrier (Avemco) and spoke with a VP, who stated that there is absolutely no scenario where the club would be left uncovered, even if members flew with uninsured CFI's. In fact, in a refreshing bit of honesty from an insurance person, he said that based on their experiences, we would be better off screening our CFI's instead of requiring insurance coverage.

Now, I'm needing to figure out exactly how this screening process should work, and sadly Avemco did NOT have any examples of how it should be done! (Doh!) So, I'm wondering if y'all have any suggestions.

FWIW, we're an equity club, we own our airplanes. Safety is obviously paramount, but in addition it would be nice to also judge how well CFI's will teach ownership-related issues - For example, overuse of brakes on the DA40.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

Send another instructor up with the instructor.

Don't assume all instructors are fine and wont' teach something ridiculous. I'm still trying to undo bad habits that a particular local instructor engrained into many pilots.

For example there was one local insturctor that taught pilots to do a full power runup with the brakes held. Then slowly inch the mixture back at full power until peak power then sit there with the engine still at full power while they check several other things. We're at 1200 ft MSL...Sigh. Also flew about 100 knot final in a cherokee.

These instructors will carve deep habits into the pilots of your club. Make sure they are habits you want your pilots doing.

 

[bbchien]

Kent, have you gotten your CFI yet?

 

[poadeleted20]

Now, I'm needing to figure out exactly how this screening process should work, and sadly Avemco did NOT have any examples of how it should be done! (Doh!) So, I'm wondering if y'all have any suggestions.

• Design an application form which includes all the things you'd see on a work application for such a position, including work history and references.
• Get a full resume.
• Check references and past employers.
• Obtain a PRIA records checki.
• Review their logbooks and certificates.
• Interview applicants who get past the paper phase.
• Send them up with your most experienced instructor for a final check.

IOW, treat it as though you were hiring them as employees in safety-critical positions.

 

[denverpilot]

These instructors will carve deep habits into the pilots of your club. Make sure they are habits you want your pilots doing.

Sounds like clubs need teaching standards more than they need to make CFIs buy insurance or any of the other silliness, especially considering the insurance guy says they're covered anyway.

Any CFI who doesn't want to play along to the club's song sheet, doesn't teach in club aircraft.

Just an observation.

 

[dell30rb]

This is a reply I got from our club's chief cfi about our club's policies regarding instructors.

I understand the logic of your question and your wish to take advantage of your friend's experience. And, as a famously cheap (let's say frugal) guy, I share your concern with the cost of flying. Truly, I am sympathetic. But the issue is more complicated than it may seem and the club has a history with this sort of thing.

Again, let me say how much I appreciate the forthright way you have handled this. It suggests a respect for the club and an appreciation for the collegial nature of the club that I applaud. We really are a member-owned and operated organization. If you feel that this or any other policy should be revisited by the club, I would urge you to attend a board meeting - the next meeting will convene on 8 November. And I would seriously suggest that you consider stepping forward for service on the board.

Perhaps some explanation of the club's instructional strategy will help answer your question. Club instructors are appointed based on their commitment to the club: their understanding of the club culture, their willingness to serve as ambassadors for the club, to spend unpaid time at the club greeting prospective members, answering the phone, helping students not their own, answering questions from members, joining in on mx nights, taking out the trash, helping with ground schools, and doing a thousand other small tasks to build the club and serve its members. Club instructors are asked and expected to provide instruction as their schedule permits to any club member. In other words, a club instructor does not selectively choose his or her students. His or her responsibility is to the club and its members. In return the club promises its instructors the opportunity to teach and learn and earn something of a living from their service to the members.

In other words, appointment as a club instructor is based on far more than flight or instructional experience and ability.

The club also attempts to balance the size of the instructor corps with the demand for instruction. We want every member to have instruction available for training, currency, and proficiency. At the same time, we do not want instructors to go wanting for students, which produces an unhealthy situation. At the moment, we have several members who are experienced instructors who do not currently instruct for the club for this reason. We do have several part-time instructors who agree to step in when we need extra help, taking on students at the request of the club, and to step back when demand subsides. This practice provides flexibility without infringing on the instructional opportunities of the full-time instructors.

The club limits instruction in its airplanes to instructors approved by the board of directors for reasons of standardization and community. Many volunteers work very hard to build and maintain the club - supervising the construction of our building, maintaining the airplanes, washing the airplanes, cutting the grass, cleaning the bathrooms, scheduling and leading activities, performing bookkeeping chores, paying taxes and performing accounting and financial management, etc. This volunteer effort allows us all to fly airplanes at much lower cost than we might find them elsewhere. Our instructors are an integral part of that effort.

Hardly a week passes that I don't get an inquiry from an instructor along the lines of, "I'm an instructor and I want to join your club and teach my friend Bob to fly." (Or, common now that complex aircraft are difficult to find in the various rental fleets, "I need a complex airplane for my commercial certificate. I want to join your club so my instructor and I can use your Mooney for my commercial checkride.") My polite reply goes something like this: "I am certain that you are a wonderful instructor and we would be very happy to have you and your friend Bob as club members, but the club cannot provide aircraft for instructors to teach their friends to fly." There follows an exchange in which the instructor will elaborate on his vast experience, superior aviation skills, fat logbook, and general all around wonderfulness. I try to explain that this is all beside the point.

Years ago, the club occasionally allowed this situation to develop. It never ended well. Instructors who did not share our commitment to the club, although they were often fine pilots and instructors, were not eager to fulfill the currency requirements expected of club instructors. (Are you aware that every club instructors is subject to the same checkout requirements and the same currency requirements - the club annual proficiency check most notably - as all other members?) Nor were they inclined to subscribe to the standard practices that the club has established. We found that we simply lost control of the nature and quality of instruction taking place in club aircraft. Consequently, for many years now, we have insisted that training at the club be provided by instructors who are members first and foremost and who share a long-term commitment to the survival and success of the club.

At the same time, we never want the club to become insular and self-satisfied. I am always interested in meeting instructors who have trained and flown elsewhere. At the moment, the club does not have an opportunity for an additional instructor, particularly as activity slows down with the onset of winter and the reduced daylight hours, but f you think that your friend would want to make that kind of commitment to the club, I would certainly want to talk to him.

In the meantime, I am certain he can serve you well in the role of mentor and advisor and flying companion.

 

[weilke]

This is a reply I got from our club's chief cfi about our club's policies regarding instructors.

Your flying club sounds very 'clubby'.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I think the end result you are looking for is that, in the event of an accident while an instructional flight is going on in a club aircraft:
The club is fully covered by the club policy for liability.
The aircraft is fully covered by the club policy for hull damage.
The occupants are fully covered by the club policy for hull damage and liability (i.e. no subrogation).

Done, done, and done. That was my main concern was that these items would still be covered from the club's perspective while instruction was happening.

What I've seen other clubs do is screen their CFIs by having them fly with the club safety officer as a sanity check that they can safely give instruction and supervise,

That'd be great... But who pays for it? Also, sad as this may be, I'm not sure there'll always be a safety officer who is reasonably qualified to do such things. In fact, most CFI's would probably say I'm not qualified, 'cuz I'm not a CFI.

and that the CFI must be a club member (so that the CFI is thus a named insured).

Tread carefully! Our club's policy covers all members as named insured. "Capitol City Flyers, Inc. and individual members thereof." So I'd have thought what you think - Except for buried within the policy is a specific exclusion for giving instruction. What that means is that, while I am fully covered as named insured as PIC in our club's aircraft, as soon as I'm in the right seat giving instruction (were I a CFI, of course), I'm hung out to dry - No coverage at all.

CFIs who AREN'T club members expose themselves to subrogation from the club's insurance, and should thus carry their own coverage.

At least in our case, that's true of ALL CFI's, even those who are club members. But whether or not a CFI chooses to purchase their own coverage is not something the club needs to be concerned with. That's what started this whole process to begin with.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

For primary training, require the CFI to have a certain of number of hours in the plane. That'd be logical.

For instrument and flight reviews, I don't think it should matter.

Since we don't do primary instruction except for late-stage stuff (members are required to be post-solo and have 25 hours before they're allowed to fly our planes), we won't need to separate out the categories above.

Logic? In primary, the instructor will need to do landings, etc. and should be more familiar with the plane. In instrument and flight reviews, he shouldn't need to as much.

Definitely would like some time in type on the Diamond though, even for experienced CFI's. Not such a big deal in the Archer or the 182 - But it is a big deal in the Diamond, even though it's a very easy airplane to fly. It's got several quirks to it that are very different from most airplanes, and they need to be known and taught.

It sounds like in either case, you're covered no matter who the CFI is. If the CFI doesn't have his own insurance, that's his problem.

Bingo.

If I was told I needed a checkout with another CFI prior to instruction in the plane, it'd have to be a plane that was a lot more complicated than a 182 or a Diamond.

Definitely won't be a "checkout" type scenario. Hell, we don't even require our members to get a checkout if they have previous time in type, we don't have any 90-day currency requirement in our airplanes, etc. The only requirement we have is that someone who hasn't flown a single-engine airplane in over 6 months (IE anyone's airplane, not just ours) has to take a CFI up rather than just go around the patch for three bang-and-goes to get current.

 

[dell30rb]

Your flying club sounds very 'clubby'.

Its a bit much sometimes. We have nearly 300 members however.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

This is a reply I got from our club's chief cfi about our club's policies regarding instructors.

Very interesting, but that sounds like a very different type of club - Something more like Green Castle. Lots of members, trying to build a community, giving primary instruction, etc... We're just a couple dozen guys who want to own and fly nicer airplanes without having to spend a fortune.

 

[weilke]

Its a bit much sometimes. We have nearly 300 members however.

I learned flying in a club like that. Long history, kind of like a yacht club. These formal places tend to attract the people who love to accumulate club posts for the political power it gives them yet want to be thanked by everyone on how hard they work for the club. I think if I had said I want to bring in an outside CFI, the BOD would have just started to clasp their chests and started seizing.

 

[weilke]

Very interesting, but that sounds like a very different type of club - Something more like Green Castle. Lots of members, trying to build a community, giving primary instruction, etc... We're just a couple dozen guys who want to own and fly nicer airplanes without having to spend a fortune.

Then I wouldn't get too catholic about the instructor checkout thing. The more you 'approve' instructors, the more liability you put on the club anyway, try to keep them as independent as possible. Set some limits for hours of dual given 'in type'. I would suggest some sort of agreement that spells out the insurance (or lack thereof) situation, the fact that there is no agreement between the club and the instructor on the instruction part (iow the agreement is between pilot and cfi alone) and that the instructor has use of the plane at the mercy of the BOD. If there is an issue with the quality of instruction, it'll be obvious pretty soon. Arguably, a required phase-check with every student prior to solo and prior to the long cross-country would serve best to weed out the ones that teach crazy stuff. Students respond to different teaching styles, judge the work product, not the process.

Oh, how does your airport authority view the work of independent CFIs or is this something you better don't try to think about .

 

[dell30rb]

I learned flying in a club like that. Long history, kind of like a yacht club. These formal places tend to attract the people who love to accumulate club posts for the political power it gives them yet want to be thanked by everyone on how hard they work for the club. I think if I had said I want to bring in an outside CFI, the BOD would have just started to clasp their chests and started seizing.

Basically I wanted to get a friend who is a cfii / atp / pro pilot on the insurance policy so that I (as an instrument student) could file IFR under his certificate for a few x/c trips with our girlfriends. I even offered to pay for him to have a checkout in the aircraft we would fly. This was poo-poo'd.

As others have mentioned in this thread - for primary training it makes sense to have "club" instructors that are very familiar with our aircraft and operating practices but for advanced training it should not matter. Our club handbook specifies instrument proficiency standards as simply "teach to checkride standards".

I actually decided to run for the board of directors.

 

[weilke]

Basically I wanted to get a friend who is a cfii / atp / pro pilot on the insurance policy so that I (as an instrument student) could file IFR under his certificate for a few x/c trips with our girlfriends. I even offered to pay for him to have a checkout in the aircraft we would fly. This was poo-poo'd.

Well, sounds like the place is doing things 'their way' and there are already people in line by virtue of seniority to liberate you from some more of your money. How dare you cut the line, not pay your dues, **** on the club founders grave and otherwise make yourself a pest like that.

As others have mentioned in this thread - for primary training it makes sense to have "club" instructors that are very familiar with our aircraft and operating practices but for advanced training it should not matter. Our club handbook specifies instrument proficiency standards as simply "teach to checkride standards".

Well, the letter reprinted above outlines their thinking, and while I disagree with it I can follow how they arrived at their way of doing things. The free flying hours on someone elses dime are apparently a priviledge to be awarded by the chief CFI, how dare you upset the apple cart with logic.

I actually decided to run for the board of directors.

Hihihi. Get a gaggle of primary students to support you in your quest to effect 'CHANGE'. You wont believe how quick the 'machine' will spring into action to peel off some of your supporters using promises of priority in the booking schedule, access to the nicer training plane or free rides with senior club members. Also, expect to get writeups for leaving the plane in less than perfect condition or accusations that you broke some FAA reg. You are a troublemaker and we have dealt with your kind before :wink2: .

 

[flyingcheesehead]

A few clarifications:

* The club is more like a large partnership than many flying clubs...
- We're all equity owners
- There's only about 25-30 of us, and three airplanes
- We don't have "club CFI's", though we occasionally have club-member CFI's - There's one now who just joined
- We don't do primary instruction. We do allow a pilot to join and finish up their private, but they cannot fly club planes until they have soloed and have 25 hours.

* Types of instruction that are given the most:
- Aircraft checkouts
- Flight reviews
- Instrument rating training
- IPC's

* Other things I'd like to accomplish here
- Have the CFI's who teach in the club airplanes consider ownership/aircraft care types of issues as well as simply flying the plane, e.g. Why it's not OK to fly the Archer if the oleo struts aren't properly inflated, how and why to check the tires before every flight on the Diamond (and stay off the brakes), etc.
- Equipment specific to our planes - How to use the autopilots, engine analyzers, etc.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Send another instructor up with the instructor.

Problem is... Who? We don't always have a CFI as a member of the club, and we can't send up two non-member CFI's because the insurance wouldn't cover us in that scenario.

Don't assume all instructors are fine and wont' teach something ridiculous. I'm still trying to undo bad habits that a particular local instructor engrained into many pilots.

These instructors will carve deep habits into the pilots of your club. Make sure they are habits you want your pilots doing.

Yeah... I'm just trying to figure out how to do that in a way that fits within the limitations of our club. I would like to think that I could tell whether a CFI was going to do dumb stuff and was going to teach our members not only how to fly but how to take good care of their airplanes, but will the next person be a geek like me/experienced CFI or owner/etc.? Considering that it's often just the first warm body to volunteer that gets on the board, I'm not very optimistic about that.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Then I wouldn't get too catholic about the instructor checkout thing.

The more you 'approve' instructors, the more liability you put on the club anyway, try to keep them as independent as possible.

**** liability. (Sorry, I'm so sick of everyone doing everything to avoid liability - It's a pain.) We're covered. Period. And it was the insurance company who suggested that we screen CFI's, too...

Set some limits for hours of dual given 'in type'.

Problem is with our aircraft types.

Even the relatively-common 182 is the only 182 that's in a club around here, and there aren't any rental 182's around. Plenty of CFI's around here with no dual given in a 182.

The DA40 is the only DA40 within 50 miles, period. NONE of the instructors around here had any dual given in a DA40 before we bought ours and they started checking us out in it. (Us does not include me, I had enough time in type that the insurance company specifically approved me without a checkout, and I picked the plane up when we bought it. Then I took one of the instructors up in it.)

I would suggest some sort of agreement that spells out the insurance (or lack thereof) situation, the fact that there is no agreement between the club and the instructor on the instruction part (iow the agreement is between pilot and cfi alone) and that the instructor has use of the plane at the mercy of the BOD.

All good suggestions... Thanks!

Arguably, a required phase-check with every student prior to solo and prior to the long cross-country would serve best to weed out the ones that teach crazy stuff. Students respond to different teaching styles, judge the work product, not the process.

We don't do primary instruction. Several years ago the limit for getting into the club was lowered from "Private Pilot" to "post-solo student with 25 hours" but we've only ever had one member take advantage of that, I think.

Oh, how does your airport authority view the work of independent CFIs or is this something you better don't try to think about .

Ugh... The problem isn't the airport authority so much as the good ol' TSA badge rule. An independent CFI without an airplane based at the field theoretically has no "need" for a badge, so they can't get one. Luckily, they can be "escorted" by their students. Sigh.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Kent, have you gotten your CFI yet?

Not yet... Sigh. I was kind of waiting for the FAA to get rid of the complex aircraft requirement because I don't have easy access to a good complex aircraft. Now that they have issued the final rule without that change, it appears I'll have to suck it up and find a way. Might do the MEI first.

But, school and work will be keeping me extremely busy through the end of the year, so it's not gonna happen in 2011. Maybe in the spring, more likely in the fall of 2012. Just in time for the world to end.

 

[weilke]

A few clarifications:

* The club is more like a large partnership than many flying clubs...
- We're all equity owners
- There's only about 25-30 of us, and three airplanes
- We don't have "club CFI's", though we occasionally have club-member CFI's - There's one now who just joined
- We don't do primary instruction. We do allow a pilot to join and finish up their private, but they cannot fly club planes until they have soloed and have 25 hours.

* Types of instruction that are given the most:
- Aircraft checkouts
- Flight reviews
- Instrument rating training
- IPC's

* Other things I'd like to accomplish here
- Have the CFI's who teach in the club airplanes consider ownership/aircraft care types of issues as well as simply flying the plane, e.g. Why it's not OK to fly the Archer if the oleo struts aren't properly inflated, how and why to check the tires before every flight on the Diamond (and stay off the brakes), etc.
- Equipment specific to our planes - How to use the autopilots, engine analyzers, etc.

Well, sounds like you need to attract someone mature with a CFI ticket but a day-job into your club so you can have him/her be in charge of checkouts, keeping an eye on independent instructors etc. But I bet you already knew that....

 

[flyingcheesehead]

• Design an application form which includes all the things you'd see on a work application for such a position, including work history and references.
• Get a full resume.
• Check references and past employers.
• Obtain a PRIA records checki.
• Review their logbooks and certificates.
• Interview applicants who get past the paper phase.
• Send them up with your most experienced instructor for a final check.

IOW, treat it as though you were hiring them as employees in safety-critical positions.

Ron,

With the clarifications I've posted above in mind, can you clarify the reasoning behind the items you list? A few things in particular:

* Big application/resume/reference check: This sounds like a bunch of extra work that may not be necessary nor productive... See below.
* What is a "PRIA records check"?
* What should be covered in an interview? Who should give the interview?
* We don't necessarily have any instructors at all, much less a "most experienced" one qualified to give a check flight.

Thanks!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Well, sounds like you need to attract someone mature with a CFI ticket but a day-job into your club so you can have him/her be in charge of checkouts, keeping an eye on independent instructors etc. But I bet you already knew that....

That's great, until that person moves along... I think we're fairly well set right now, an experienced CFI/charter pilot just joined, but I certainly don't expect us to always be in that situation, so I'm looking towards procedures that we'll actually be able to stick to.

 

[weilke]

**** liability. (Sorry, I'm so sick of everyone doing everything to avoid liability - It's a pain.) We're covered. Period. And it was the insurance company who suggested that we screen CFI's, too...

Sure, they suggested it. Having all 5 directors of the club included in the party if something goes wrong is in their interest. Isn't that the same company that doesn't cover instruction in the first place ??

Even the relatively-common 182 is the only 182 that's in a club around here, and there aren't any rental 182's around. Plenty of CFI's around here with no dual given in a 182.

I assume you will need someone who is comfortable in a 182 to do hp endorsements. So no matter how, you'll need someone who can really teach to fly that plane without frying the engine or bending the nosewheel. You shouldn't need a multitude of instructors for that particular item, I mean how many new members do you expect per year.

The DA40 is the only DA40 within 50 miles, period. NONE of the instructors around here had any dual given in a DA40 before we bought ours and they started checking us out in it. (Us does not include me, I had enough time in type that the insurance company specifically approved me without a checkout, and I picked the plane up when we bought it. Then I took one of the instructors up in it.)

Does the insurance require that the person performing the checkout is a CFI ? I know mine doesn't care. The FAA doesn't know what a 'checkout' is anyway.

We don't do primary instruction. Several years ago the limit for getting into the club was lowered from "Private Pilot" to "post-solo student with 25 hours" but we've only ever had one member take advantage of that, I think.

Rather than writing policies and contracts, how about you go down to Sheble and get your CFI out of the way and 90% of your clubs issues would be resolved.

Ugh... The problem isn't the airport authority so much as the good ol' TSA badge rule. An independent CFI without an airplane based at the field theoretically has no "need" for a badge, so they can't get one. Luckily, they can be "escorted" by their students. Sigh.

Make the CFI a club member who owns 'preferred stock' (iow non-voting nominal shares of $1 value), thereby he has a plane he is an owner of and is able to get his badge.

Seriously, look into the commercial standards rules of your airport. They can get really cantankerous if they think you cut them out of their buck fifty or expose them to liability from allowing a commercial operator onto their field without the required form in triplicate and the prayers, blessings and frankincense of an airport board meeting. If you have some sort of facility at the airport, you may have to sublet a chair or a desk in your corner of the hangar to the CFI, run this through the authority authority and get it signed off (the other way is to route the payment for the CFI services through the club, but then, it's that 'l-word' again).

 

[weilke]

* What is a "PRIA records check"?

A law obliging any certain aviation employers to perform a background check on any flight crew member they hire.

Meant to weed out the ones who got fired from prior jobs for incompetence that didn't lead to an official FAA record to pop up at a different employer a couple of months later.

 

[Everskyward]

I'm trying to understand your situation. You want to screen CFIs who might instruct members in the club's airplanes but you don't have any CFIs who can do the screening? I think you should do it as long as you are the club safety officer. You don't need to be a CFI since you are not giving the prospective CFIs instruction, you're just letting them know what the club SOPs are for the particular airplane. I'm not even sure that would require a flight. You could put together some written SOPs and go over them with the prospective CFI.

Granted, I've never been in an ownership club but if I was I would think I could bring in my own CFI, especially if there was none available within the club. However, I think the owner/club member would need to be acting PIC.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Sure, they suggested it. Having all 5 directors of the club included in the party if something goes wrong is in their interest. Isn't that the same company that doesn't cover instruction in the first place ??

They will cover instruction, for an extra $3K/yr plus on our premium. As we currently only have one CFI in the club (soon to be 2), it'd make more sense for us to pay for his personal CFI insurance policy than to cover him through the club, and Avemco even suggested that.

Does the insurance require that the person performing the checkout is a CFI ?

Yup... Though now that you mention it, I wonder if they'd change that too. They do require a "right seat checkout" to fly from the right seat, which I did get in the DA40.

Rather than writing policies and contracts, how about you go down to Sheble and get your CFI out of the way and 90% of your clubs issues would be resolved.

Naah, they'd just get moved over to me!

Make the CFI a club member who owns 'preferred stock' (iow non-voting nominal shares of $1 value), thereby he has a plane he is an owner of and is able to get his badge.

Easier just to escort 'em.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm trying to understand your situation. You want to screen CFIs who might instruct members in the club's airplanes but you don't have any CFIs who can do the screening?

Bingo. I wish Avemco had been more clear about what they were really suggesting, but I specifically asked for guidance, materials, etc. and they had none. Dunno whether to or on that one.

I think you should do it as long as you are the club safety officer. You don't need to be a CFI since you are not giving the prospective CFIs instruction, you're just letting them know what the club SOPs are for the particular airplane. I'm not even sure that would require a flight. You could put together some written SOPs and go over them with the prospective CFI.

That's kinda what I'm thinking. A simple form stating that they are responsible for their own insurance and laying out a few expectations, maybe VFR/IFR syllabi for checkout in each aircraft, and probably syllabi for flight reviews/IPC's in each aircraft as well.

Granted, I've never been in an ownership club but if I was I would think I could bring in my own CFI, especially if there was none available within the club. However, I think the owner/club member would need to be acting PIC.

That's how it always was until a year or two ago. Now I'm trying to be a bit more formal about it without being so restrictive as to simply force people to use the FBO instructors.

 

[denverpilot]

As long as instructors in your club know that if you're in the aircraft, a spare nose and main gear tire must be carried in the baggage area at all times... They passed the checkout!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

As long as instructors in your club know that if you're in the aircraft, a spare nose and main gear tire must be carried in the baggage area at all times... They passed the checkout!

Yes... They call me the tire-slayer! (No, I don't ride the brakes - I swear - my rollouts are brake-free on our long runways and if I were riding the brakes I'd have to add power to get to Charlie when landing on 32.)

I knew a guy who had been a pilot on three nose-gear collapses, none of which were his fault - left seat on a 310 and a King Air and right seat on a Citation. Bad luck must have its preferences.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Kent: We're a non-profit; currently about 100 members.
We have a chief pilot and safety officer. They developed standards and checklists for each plane along with a written test anyone teaching or flying the plane must pass. It asks basic questions with answers in the POH like weight and balance calcs.; amount of fuel carried etc. Each instructor must take an annual standardization ride with the chief pilot or another designated instructor. All pilots must pass the written test for the plane and take periodic rides with club instructors. Our test are on line and some of the standards are if that would help.

Best,

Dave