CFI does impossible turn at San Carlos

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by TheGolfPilot, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. TheGolfPilot

    TheGolfPilot Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2015
    Messages:
    674
    Location:
    Walnut Creek, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Golfpilot
    Got this off reddit. Really impressive CFI reaction

     
    Cpt_Kirk, Ronbonjovi and WannFly like this.
  2. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    22,820
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Looks like he had partial power, helps a lot if he did. Good job, no panic on his part. But not what we would call "the impossible turn".
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  3. N659HB

    N659HB Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Messages:
    2,251
    Location:
    The True Southeast
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc
    The engine was making enough power (~2000 rpm) to maintain a level turn back toward the airport, not zero thrust. Still good reaction time and skilled maneuvering!
     
  4. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,833
    Location:
    Owensboro, KY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skyrys62
    Robert is signing up for the Fruit of the Loom subscription as we speak.
     
  5. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    3,304
    Location:
    KFAR
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WannaFly
    Rofl rofl rofl

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
  6. mryan75

    mryan75 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Messages:
    465
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mryan75
    Cool as the other side of the pillow. Really fine job.
     
    Ronbonjovi likes this.
  7. F01LA

    F01LA Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    522
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    5446
    An important point.. we train for full power loss, but often you'll have a partial power situation.
     
  8. rtk11

    rtk11 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2015
    Messages:
    1,119
    Location:
    Southern California
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    rtk
    Excellent flying by the CFI. Stayed cool, Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Well done.
     
  9. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    48,653
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    Only thing I saw and we can all be trapped into doing it, is the CFI is messing around with stuff during the takeoff.

    I’ve had three old wise CFIs give the same admonishment, “Nothing in your hands below 500 AGL... and keep your feet lightly on the rudder pedals.”

    Another old CFI friend who isn’t active anymore does a hilarious impression of a CFI save that starts with purposefully looking bored, and sitting there, then a fast “My airplane!”, a quick twitch of a simulated yoke, and “Your airplane, whenever you’re ready...” LOL.

    It’s visual. You have to see it. We’ve all seen it out of our peripheral vision when we were learning, though. Hahaha.
     
  10. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,833
    Location:
    Owensboro, KY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skyrys62
    If someone yells My airplane! hand them the bill for the new avionics.
    I bet you hear Your airplane!
     
    rene86mx, snowbird and WannFly like this.
  11. JCranford

    JCranford Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,209
    Location:
    North TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JCranford
    Robert's gonna go shopping for bowling balls. This flying thing might not be his bag.
     
    Skyrys62 likes this.
  12. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    3,304
    Location:
    KFAR
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WannaFly
    Glad I never recorded my steep turns for people to see

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
    Ed Sokol and Skyrys62 like this.
  13. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,746
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    No biggie. People record rollercoaster rides and post them.
     
  14. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,746
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    The CFI shudda coached Robert through the turnback and landing. He’s not getting paid to fly he’s getting paid to teach.

    At least that’s how my primary CFI briefed it to me. My initial reaction was slightly incredulous since I hadn’t soloed yet but he definitely had a point as we talked through various departure emergencies.
     
  15. danhagan

    danhagan Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    May 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,450
    Location:
    El Paso, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    danhagan
    I don't think so ... depends on student's time and the field. That looked like a fairly dense population runway environment and no telling if you'd get a windshield full of oil during the process.

    OTOH, at my field (out in the middle of nowhere), a CFI buddy of mine was up with a student and lost the engine *AND* had the windshield obscured while in the pattern (non-towered). He did coach the student to landing and never touched the controls, but ONLY because it happened on the downwind and was identical to a power off 180 with the timing of the event.
     
  16. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    2,905
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dmspilot
    The student relinquished control without being asked. Do you think they would rather argue about who is going to fly the plane, or survive the emergency?
     
    TheGolfPilot and Palmpilot like this.
  17. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,746
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    Read the rest of my post. I think departure EPs should be pre-briefed and any exchange of controls should be positive.
     
  18. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    4,244
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jsstevens
    I'm pretty sure the instructor said "My airplane" as he grabbed the yoke. They didn't do the whole exchange thing.
     
    mscard88 likes this.
  19. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    22,820
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I always briefed my students that when I say " I have the controls" or similar that means I'm flying so you come off the controls.
     
    Ed Sokol likes this.
  20. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    2,905
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dmspilot
    Why don't you watch it again until you are completely sure.
     
  21. TylerSC

    TylerSC Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2016
    Messages:
    216
    Location:
    Columbia, SC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    TylerSC
    Great work handling the emergency. The student did jump off the controls. He must be fairly new.
     
  22. exncsurfer

    exncsurfer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2014
    Messages:
    1,796
    Location:
    NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    exncsurfer
    I was reading his youtube comments, seems he has his ticket and was getting refresher dual after a landing shook his confidence a bit.
     
  23. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    15,002
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    I wonder how his confidence is now. :eek:
     
    paflyer likes this.
  24. exncsurfer

    exncsurfer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2014
    Messages:
    1,796
    Location:
    NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    exncsurfer
    Yea, I guess it could go either way.
     
  25. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    4,244
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jsstevens
    At about 55 seconds the student says "Your airplane." The instructor already had his hands on the controls. So, I was mistaken that the instructor said "My airplane" but the student did not take his hands off the controls until the instructor already had his hands on the controls. Then the student said "Your airplane."
     
  26. Wade

    Wade Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2016
    Messages:
    120
    Location:
    Boise Idaho
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Maxcat
    No biggie with 2000 rpm looks they even had full flaps in.
     
  27. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    4,902
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CC268
    Hahahaha "you know what your doing I'm gonna shut up"
     
    Skyrys62 likes this.
  28. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,746
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    I flew a 1,000+ mile XC with my instructor bringing the 'kota home after purchase. First 2.5 legs were mine but I pretty much hit the wall and told the instructor to fly. His first landing was in the dark and rather windy. I didn't shut up until he went around. We got really low. He nailed the landing on the second approach and I learned a lot about handling winds.

    Anyway, maybe the other guy has it dialed in, maybe he doesn't. Fly the plane.
     
    CC268 likes this.
  29. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    25,304
    Location:
    Land of Savages
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    steingar
    I can only hope that when my time comes I act more like the instructor and less like the student.
     
    Ronbonjovi likes this.
  30. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    48,653
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    It’s a bit harsh to say that. We don’t know how the student would have reacted, solo. When there’s a safety net sitting next to you, it’s hard not to use it. When the safety net says “I’ve got the airplane” it’s impossible. After that the poor guy was in passenger mode.

    One of the best learning experiences I had in the twin was watching out of the corner of my eye how hard my instructor tried to stay OFF the controls when I was struggling with something.

    I knew to watch because I knew we were going on to the CFI right after the Commercial, but most folks never watch the behavior of their CFI much while they’re working hard at something.

    I think given the additional info shared that this pilot had been shaken a bit previous to this flight and was looking to regain confidence, the instructor simply took the airplane and landed it because that confidence would really be shaken by an off airport landing. But maybe not, sometimes it’s just style.

    Also there’s a growing number of instructors who are seeing a trend that power loss on takeoff is killing too many people and forcibly training away the bad habits (holding the nose up or level). In almost everything we fly in the piston world, a PUSH is mandatory and needs to be automatic. If this pilot never had that rigid methodology slammed into his head, he may still need it done. The push triggers the action part of the brain, and tends to keep that ball rolling.

    Best part of the video to analyze isn’t their reactions, it’s their LACK of ACTION for at least five to ten seconds.

    Pilot is watching the power and it’s not right, you can tell he knows it because when the instructor finally notices, he argues “It is at full power!”... no... it’s not. The throttle is forward but you weren’t seeing full power for quite a while by the time the instructor demands more power. Act. Now. If nothing else, make the radio call which will wake up the instructor.

    I don’t think either person did anything I didn’t expect to see, other than the CFI being distracted during a critical phase of flight. It’s easy to fall into that particular complacency trap, so I’m not judging harshly. He came back to paying attention in time to fix it. He’d have noticed five seconds sooner and been able to teach the return if he wasn’t fiddling with stuff below 500’ AGL. Maybe.

    Maybe the student would have yelled “Your airplane!” A good friend of mine had a student do that when the engine puked on a night instrument training flight going missed. He jokes with his student, “You were such a chicken, you could have landed that...” LOL. But they barely made the runway... and then got some lovely photos of what a sucked valve does to pistons hammering away at the broken bits. They “turned final” at about half a wingspan height plus five feet. Just barely enough energy to line up. The goal was just to make the flat airport property with few and known obstructions vs unknown ones in the dark outside the fence. The ability to turn and land on the runway was just a bonus, as he says.

    Slow is smooth and smooth is fast, as the saying goes, but sometimes you do need fast. Knowing the critical phases of flight where an action can’t be delayed, is a good way not to get caught off guard.
     
  31. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    5,329
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    That coulda been interesting if some things had happened just a little earlier or a little later. Kudos to Grumman 28797 for listening and paying attention to what was going on around him.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  32. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    48,653
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    Mmm. That too. Must have been Carl flying @SixPapaCharlie ‘s Grumman. :)
     
  33. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    5,329
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    now that's what I call a serious case of lost. Wasn't he on the way to Austin for wing surgery?
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  34. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    48,653
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    You never know where Carl will turn up. :)