CFI depression

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Avensa727

Filing Flight Plan
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Avensa
CFI dilemma

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"Easier, quicker and cheaper" is not necessarily better. Now if your talking ab out finding ways to save students money, well that is a sticky wicket! If you think the school does not have its students best interest at heart and you think you can do things better without compromising safety, then become and independent CFI. GA needs CFIs that care about the student and care about the students wallet.
 
If it's an issue, go independent and do what you need to do. Prolly make more $$ that way as well. But if you burn that bridge with the FBO, good luck getting a plane to teach in.
 
Avensa727 said:
So I'm a newly minted CFI, as of a couple of months ago. Landing my first job was cake. The need for CFI's can definitely be felt around the country. Finally getting paid to fly is such a treat. However, I am extremely depressed at the politics behind this job. I've been getting in trouble A LOT lately for not being a good salesman. The students love me and learn a lot, plus I get very generous tips by first time flyers and the satisfaction of seeing a smiling face is priceless. My wife supports me. I can't pay the bills with the money I make. I'm caught in a moral dilemma. I know easier, cheaper, and quicker ways of getting things done, but they go against the flight school. Has anyone else dealt with this? :dunno:
I love and HATE my job, and it kills me inside.
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Did you study this career choice BEFORE you committed yourself? I can't imagine anyone thinking they could make a decent living doing this in this day in age! How old are you? How many hours total do you have?
 
First follow the FAR, Second do what's in the best interest of your students, Third, try to become fronds with the management.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Did you study this career choice BEFORE you committed yourself? I can't imagine anyone thinking they could make a decent living doing this in this day in age! How old are you? How many hours total do you have?
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You can easily break 30k CFIing, more if you're ambitious and end up getting other CFIs to fly for you too.

Also the way many folks break into the industry.

So you work in the industry?
 
Love your job but hate the management?

Welcome to what us old timers call .. ..a job.

Did it for 24 years. Just keep your head down and go home. And don't volunteer for anything. ;)
 
Kind of hard to give you advice without more detail as to what your conflict with management is. Feel free to PM me if you want. I've done a fair amount of instructing and am know managing a small startup flight school (in my free time). Most of my time is spent managing technical projects.
 
In my opinion sales drives any business.
I feel if you are not being a good salesman you are not funding your paycheck.
If you start your own business you will need to learn to sell.
Being well liked is not the same as closing sales.
I am working on becoming a CFI so I have no idea what the day to day is like.
I do have business experience and know how to count.
It is my observation that most CFIs don’t make a good living.
If you want management to change, find out why they are the way they are and sell them on changing.
If you want to start you own business; find out why they are the way they are and figure out ways to make up for what you are giving up when you don’t do it their way.
 
Vance Breese said:
In my opinion sales drives any business.
I feel if you are not being a good salesman you are not funding your paycheck.
If you start your own business you will need to learn to sell.
Being well liked is not the same as closing sales.
I am working on becoming a CFI so I have no idea what the day to day is like.
I do have business experience and know how to count.
It is my observation that most CFIs don’t make a good living.
If you want management to change, find out why they are the way they are and sell them on changing.
If you want to start you own business; find out why they are the way they are and figure out ways to make up for what you are giving up when you don’t do it their way.
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I disagree. A business sells its services via advertising or other media/events. The employee does the service that was sold to the bst of their abiity.

If a FBO or school wants a CFI to sell, and perform, that CFI is doing all the work that an independent CFI would, at half the reimbursement


I have a deep hate for most schools/FBO's that engage in training. They think for an average of 5 bucks an hour worked or less that a CFI is supposed to do it all while the school profits. When the school has issues, it always comes down on the CFI being the failure.

I know for a fact, that a school, ran professionally, with professional looking facilities/aircraft (not new, just not warehouse chique) will do a decent business without massive advertising (a good web site is all most places need for the most part).

I would never let my son/daughter get flight training from a local school. I have seen the inside of the business, from the CFI and A&P role, and most are borderline criminal.

Lastly if a nail salon can paint the walls and instal good lighting, any flight training facility should have the same. What is with th 1930's buildings and 2x100W bulb lighting that seems to prevail in the business. For somethng charging massive money per hour (locally its pushing 200/hr dual for SEL) look the damn part.


In summary. Being a CFI usually sucks. FBO's are crooks milking the building, people and planes for every dime while complaigning that all are responsible for the downfall of business and accepting zero responsibility.
 
I guess I'll have to disagree. Even when wrapped up in a flight school or FBO, flight instruction is still a personal service. The frontline ambassador (if you will) or salesman (if another light) is still the guy providing the service. If he can't reach out to the prospective (and enrolled) students, they are going to walk away (or leave after a lessor or two).

THere's more to flight instruction as a business than just teaching.
 
flyingron said:
I guess I'll have to disagree. Even when wrapped up in a flight school or FBO, flight instruction is still a personal service. The frontline ambassador (if you will) or salesman (if another light) is still the guy providing the service. If he can't reach out to the prospective (and enrolled) students, they are going to walk away (or leave after a lessor or two).

THere's more to flight instruction as a business than just teaching.
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Exactly. Most schools expect instructors to both sell the experience during the intro ride and to work to retain current students and attract new ones.
 
Your first duty is to the student,the next is to help the school prosper.If you don't want to sell the service you might want to go out on your own.
 
Sorry to say, but flight instructors are like graduate students: highly skilled, poor wages, gaining hours and experience for a real job. Neither flight instructing nor graduate student research is expected to be a career.

I've seen long term instructors but they're all retired with a separate income or have a day job and instruct for fun.
 
n20junkie said:
I disagree. A business sells its services via advertising or other media/events. The employee does the service that was sold to the bst of their abiity.

If a FBO or school wants a CFI to sell, and perform, that CFI is doing all the work that an independent CFI would, at half the reimbursement


I have a deep hate for most schools/FBO's that engage in training. They think for an average of 5 bucks an hour worked or less that a CFI is supposed to do it all while the school profits. When the school has issues, it always comes down on the CFI being the failure.

I know for a fact, that a school, ran professionally, with professional looking facilities/aircraft (not new, just not warehouse chique) will do a decent business without massive advertising (a good web site is all most places need for the most part).

I would never let my son/daughter get flight training from a local school. I have seen the inside of the business, from the CFI and A&P role, and most are borderline criminal.

Lastly if a nail salon can paint the walls and instal good lighting, any flight training facility should have the same. What is with th 1930's buildings and 2x100W bulb lighting that seems to prevail in the business. For somethng charging massive money per hour (locally its pushing 200/hr dual for SEL) look the damn part.


In summary. Being a CFI usually sucks. FBO's are crooks milking the building, people and planes for every dime while complaigning that all are responsible for the downfall of business and accepting zero responsibility.
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That is an interesting business model.
In all the businesses I have been involved in I feel that advertising just gives me an opportunity to sell and I need to continue to see the customer feels he has received value or I don’t retain the customer.
I am not a CFI yet so perhaps the flight training business is different.
I have come across many well run flight schools.
I have seen some that are not well run.
Financial reality seems to sort them out pretty quickly.
Flight training appears to me to be a challenging business to make a profit in.
I feel based on the dropout rate that part of a CFIs job is to sell the student on completing the course and earning their certificate. I feel this is an iterative process that should be a part of every lesson.
I have no experience so I will need to learn what my actual duties are from my students and my supervisor once I become a certified flight instructor.
We agree about a professional looking staff and facilities.
 
stay alive, stay legal, stay employed
 
I wasn't sure where this thread was going. I thought it would be a "should I take lessons from a suicidal CFI?" type thread.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I wasn't sure where this thread was going. I thought it would be a "should I take lessons from a suicidal CFI?" type thread.
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No way, not even close. The issue had been mostly selling materials the school has as opposed to recommending better stuff. Also Im limited in how much ground im allowed to give. I always revert back to how it felt like when i was a student and got the instructor that just wanted to fly fly fly. I told myself i wouldnt become that way. Sorry for the lack of detail, its a small community. Thanks for the input guys :)
 
Avensa727 said:
No way, not even close. The issue had been mostly selling materials the school has as opposed to recommending better stuff. Also Im limited in how much ground im allowed to give. I always revert back to how it felt like when i was a student and got the instructor that just wanted to fly fly fly. I told myself i wouldnt become that way. Sorry for the lack of detail, its a small community. Thanks for the input guys :)
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I figured that out. Good luck to you.
 
Avensa727 said:
No way, not even close. The issue had been mostly selling materials the school has as opposed to recommending better stuff. Also Im limited in how much ground im allowed to give. I always revert back to how it felt like when i was a student and got the instructor that just wanted to fly fly fly. I told myself i wouldnt become that way. Sorry for the lack of detail, its a small community. Thanks for the input guys :)
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Screw that!

Yeah, selling the crap is the girls at the front desks job, your duty is to your student, tell them where to get what they need, take care of em' but tell them that if anyone asks you tried to sell em'

You will do better to become known as a good instructor/pilot than a good salesman.
 
James331 said:
Screw that!

Yeah, selling the crap is the girls at the front desks job, your duty is to your student, tell them where to get what they need, take care of em' but tell them that if anyone asks you tried to sell em'

You will do better to become known as a good instructor/pilot than a good salesman.
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Thats just what i needed! Thanks dude, youre right :)
 
Avensa727 said:
No way, not even close. The issue had been mostly selling materials the school has as opposed to recommending better stuff. Also Im limited in how much ground im allowed to give. I always revert back to how it felt like when i was a student and got the instructor that just wanted to fly fly fly. I told myself i wouldnt become that way. Sorry for the lack of detail, its a small community. Thanks for the input guys :)
Click to expand...

James331 said:
Screw that!

Yeah, selling the crap is the girls at the front desks job, your duty is to your student, tell them where to get what they need, take care of em' but tell them that if anyone asks you tried to sell em'

You will do better to become known as a good instructor/pilot than a good salesman.
Click to expand...

Avensa727 said:
Thats just what i needed! Thanks dude, youre right :)
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Uhm. If the business owner wants their instructors to sell their material than they can make that decision. You can't choose to just not do that. You can sit down with management and plead your case. If they tell you they don't care and want you to sell it then you can either sell it or you can part ways. There really is no middle ground.
 
The "go independant" advice is great, AFTER you've gotten 8-10 students through their PPL. Get some experience with the school, then consider going it alone, but make sure you have access to airplanes for your students. :D
 
N747JB said:
The "go independant" advice is great, AFTER you've gotten 8-10 students through their PPL. Get some experience with the school, then consider going it alone, but make sure you have access to airplanes for your students. :D
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I went independant day one and never looked back (granted, it was the mid 80's). Keep in mind that if you go independant, you'll need to market yourself.
 
flyingron said:
I guess I'll have to disagree. Even when wrapped up in a flight school or FBO, flight instruction is still a personal service. The frontline ambassador (if you will) or salesman (if another light) is still the guy providing the service. If he can't reach out to the prospective (and enrolled) students, they are going to walk away (or leave after a lessor or two).

THere's more to flight instruction as a business than just teaching.
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The fellow who taught me....former WW2 instructor, said very little and would correct in a very laid back way, oftentimes, tapping and taking the stick and showing me, never yelling or being a smart as. Very effective. Had he been a glad handler full of dale Carnigie , I probably would have moved on. He did a very effective job. This was in an 85 champ. My favorite was his slip on landing, nose high, swinging it straight just before he touched down and we rolled about 50 feet. A real master. ( usually in back seat smoking and smiling.) would occasionally ask...." Are you going to fly the GD thing or is it going to fly you!?" This was usually during a cross wind landing.
 
Avensa727 said:
Thats just what i needed! Thanks dude, youre right :)
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If you were waiting for someone to finally tell you what you wanted to hear, better start looking for a new place to work right now, because with that attitude, this one isn't going to last much longer anyway. If you take a job with somebody, then you do it their way.
 
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