CFI Checkride, Part One

[dmccormack]

My CFI checkride was scheduled for 10 AM on April 3rd at FWQ. I arrived at VVS to find the winds from 150 at 22 G 37.

Great....

I decided to launch at 9. The winds died down a bit (G32 now), but were variable between 150-170. The wind sock seemed to favor 170, and after thinking it over I realized if I took off on 14 I would be climbing into all the turbulence off the mountains, and the sink rate might exceed my climb rate.

So I opted to accept the 60 degree crosswind and take off from 23 and turn west as soon as possible.

The takeoff run was exciting -- I lined up on the left side to account for any drift. The airplane wanted to weathervane left into the wind but I worked hard at maintaining a track parallel to centerline. I reached 70 KIAS, held it on a bit longer, and popped up into the climb. The stall horn beeped at me a few times as I reached Vy (96 KIAS).

The crab angle to maintain runway centerline was about 30 degrees. I pitched and trimmed for 100 KIAS and left the gear down for stability. The airplane was caught several times by some sharp gusts and tried to roll but I was prepared and caught it and prevented the roll without over-correcting.

About 1200' AGL I raised the gear and began a slow turn westward at about 10 degree bank. If I banked more than that the winds rolling off the ridge were threatening to roll me right over, so I kept it gentle as I came around.

The turbulence on climb out would have to rated moderate to severe.

Once I was at 3500' MSL I leveled off and maintained straight and level. The turbulence was far less violent and the airplane was flying normally.

I listened to the FWQ AWOS and winds there were 150 @ 8 -- quite a difference!

I settled in behind a Cessna doing pattern work and landed on runway 8. I lowered the upwind wing and settled down nicely on the right main before the left.

I unloaded the plane after parking in front of the Airport building. I had lots to carry -- binders, books, and airplane logs.

Larry met me and helped unload. We waited past 10 and then I got a call saying he was running 15 minutes late.

We started at 1030 and after paperwork (8710, ID, etc) reviewed endorsements. they were fine despite a few questions (had to change all the dates entered as "10 JAN 2008" to "JAN 10 2008" even though the PDF the FAA provides prefers the former). We reviewed the FAA rules about right side brakes but he said we still needed an airplane with dual brakes.

(The A36 only has brake son the pilot's side. All otehr controls are available. The FAA has a guide for practical tests and on the second page they list the FAA interpretation of the rules and conclude that the examiner can hold the brakes or the examinee can simply switch seats for that portion of the test.)

I thought it was a bit unfair to say that this guidance could be ignored. He argued that working the brakes made him PIC. I held my tongue but that's nonsense as the PTS says specifically that the *applicant* is PIC.

I told him I preferred to use the CAP airplane at MGW since the 172E at FWQ seemed to be having generator output problems. He seemed OK with that.

He went over the A36 books and spent time on the phone with the FSDO about ADs, but ended up with nothing -- the A36 books are impeccable.

The he started the oral -- he had the standard FOI questions, then rolled into basic aerodynamics -- lift, how an airplane turns, primary controls, etc. Then onto navigation and I demonstrated solving a time-distance problem using the both electronic and manual E6Bs.

We discussed constant speeds props for a while.

Then he asked me to explain how and airplane turns. I discussed banking, adverse yaw, HCL and VCL, and the rest. He suggested I draw the vectors differently, but otherwise that was fine.

We spent a little time on systems, but he said he didn't know much about the Bonanza.

Around 1220 he said "You're apparently very well prepared so you passed the oral portion with flying colors.."

I was happy to hear that and we decided to fly right away rather than break for lunch before the weather deteriorated.

I checked wx and winds were 150 @ 15g22 at AGC. Oh well, would be a good day to find out if I know how to fly!

I started the preflight and prepared to describe everything but he seemed in a hurry and walked around ahead of me. I did a complete preflight and tried to point out things as I went whenever he was nearby.

I said we were good to go and said I would pull the chocks when he said "Don't pull the chocks -- there are two things wrong with this airplane and we can't fly it today."

After playing the "Guess what I'm thinking game" I figured out he meant the tiny (3mm deep) dent in the left elevator and the fact that there was a static wick on the right flap but not one on the right.

There is no STC for the wicks and no mention in the A36 shop manual, so I couldn't confirm or deny how many there should be and where they should be mounted. I told him the dent had been inspected by an IA and found airworthy but he said there needed to be a logbook enrty attesting to that (first I'd ever heard of that).

Then he said if I wanted to fly it back I would need a ferry permit.

Anyway, I was more than annoyed.

He went over to the restaurant while I called Kevin, and IA. He said he couldn't come out and sign the log this afternoon, but thought the guy was full of $#&&.

So we had lunch (he paid) and talked about flying. He did say several times "As a flight instructor you will find that..." which gave me a bit of a boost -- at least he was thinking that way.

So today I'll go buy a static wick, Kevin will install it, we'll get the logbooks annotated, and I'll try again next Thursday.

We still have to look over the CAP C172. I'm hoping I will have impressed him enough in the A36 that he'll decide, "Let me just pass this guy" and not be a pain about that airplane as well.

We'll see...

 

[MarkL]

I don't know about that dual brakes thing. You got a hand brake you can use? That's all I had during my CFI checkride. That should suffice. These guys are there just to annoy you and keep you under pressure and it's really just part of the test.

What is the solution for the dent? Is that going to be fixed before next week?

 

[TMetzinger]

First, I'm glad your oral went well. But the hassles you went through in regards to the date format, and dual brakes (I can see where the dent and the static wicks might be an issue, technically) just pulled all the gumption out of my desire to be a flight instructor. When you have inspectors ignoring their own agency guidance, what kind of example does that set?

I've heard rumors that each FSDO has a target first-time pass rate for initial CFI candidates, so that inspectors are motivated to find a reason to discontinue the ride.

I'd expect a similar going-over on the CAP airplane.

Good luck. I'm gonna try and force myself to get back to studying.

 

[dmccormack]

I had an IA install a static wick on the left flap IAW with the Bonanza A36 IPB today.

He also inspected the dent and said it was "Negligible damage" in accordance with the FFA Airframe handbook, and so logged it in the airplane's log.

The A36 is a very nice airplane, but I honestly think he didn't want to fly in the bumpy air yesterday in an airplane he didn't know.

 

[dmccormack]

-->"When you have inspectors ignoring their own agency guidance, what kind of example does that set?"

Exactly right. Then the game is "When do you ignore the regs and when do I know that's the case?"

It's a no win.

 

[TMetzinger]

I had an IA install a static wick on the left flap IAW with the Bonanza A36 IPB today.

He also inspected the dent and said it was "Negligible damage" in accordance with the FFA Airframe handbook, and so logged it in the airplane's log.

The A36 is a very nice airplane, but I honestly think he didn't want to fly in the bumpy air yesterday in an airplane he didn't know.

What's the IPB?

 

[dmccormack]

Illustrated Parts Breakdown.

The shop manual has no mention of static wicks.

 

[poadeleted20]

I thought it was a bit unfair to say that this guidance could be ignored. He argued that working the brakes made him PIC. I held my tongue but that's nonsense as the PTS says specifically that the *applicant* is PIC.

He's wrong, and for someone who doesn't know the rules on this subject to be giving an initial CFI practical test makes my blood boil. From FAA Order 8900.1:

5-78 DUAL CONTROLS IN A PRACTICAL TEST OR FLIGHT TESTING. This guidance concerns the intent of “dual controls” as it applies to civil aircraft being used for either flight instruction or practical tests, in accordance with 14 CFR part 91 , § 91.109 .

A. Neither previous nor current part 61 , § 61.45 nor § 91.109 have listed brakes as “required control” in a civil aircraft when used for either flight instruction or a practical test.

B. The FAA has held that both flight instruction and practical tests may be conducted in an airplane without dual brakes when the instructor/examiner determines that the instruction or practical test, as applicable, can be conducted safely in the aircraft. Further, numerous makes and models of both single- and multiengine civil aircraft not equipped with two sets of brakes or a central handbrake have been used to provide flight instruction required for virtually all certificate and rating areas authorized under part 61 .

C. The FAA has responded to a request for an interpretation of the requirement for brakes on the right side to be equal to the brakes on the left. The policy is that the brakes on the right side do not have to be a duplicate or equal to the brakes on the left side.

I said we were good to go and said I would pull the chocks when he said "Don't pull the chocks -- there are two things wrong with this airplane and we can't fly it today."

After playing the "Guess what I'm thinking game" I figured out he meant the tiny (3mm deep) dent in the left elevator and the fact that there was a static wick on the right flap but not one on the right.

There is no STC for the wicks and no mention in the A36 shop manual, so I couldn't confirm or deny how many there should be and where they should be mounted. I told him the dent had been inspected by an IA and found airworthy but he said there needed to be a logbook enrty attesting to that (first I'd ever heard of that).

Then he said if I wanted to fly it back I would need a ferry permit.

Anyway, I was more than annoyed.

He went over to the restaurant while I called Kevin, and IA. He said he couldn't come out and sign the log this afternoon, but thought the guy was full of $#&&.

Kevin is right. That's two strikes.

I suggest when this is over, you give a full report of this checkride to this DPE's supervising POI at the FSDO. I don't think they'll be happy with this examiner, and well they shouldn't.

BTW, take a look in the equipment list in the W&B section of the AFM and see if the static wicks are listed as required items for anything but IFR flight -- I'll bet they're not. As for the 3mm dent, only an Airworthiness Inspector may make the determination that the aircraft is not airworthy and needs a ferry permit, not a DPE.

 

[TMetzinger]

I see the word examiner used a lot in the original post, and I ignored it. Was this a ride given by a DPE, or by an FAA inspector? Regardless of who gave it, they were wrong.

 

[dmccormack]

I printed out FAA Order 8900.1 and highlighted that section. He said, "That's just guidance, but as soon as I touch the brakes I'm PIC."

As we know, that's Bull$%1T.

There is no mention of static wicks anywhere in the POH.

I forgot to mentioned he asked me what was used in the struts. I said, "Compressed air." he said, "No, nitrogen."

I said, "I'll check the POH, but it specifically says..."

"Don't bother."

This from a guy who told me at least 3 times, "I've never flown in a Bonanza..."

I know this airplane -- very, very well.

During my Comm checkride in Jan after a 20 minute oral the DE asked me -- half joking, "So what are the tire pressures?"

"33-40 on the mains, 36-40 on the nose."

His response, "Let's go fly..."

For some added background -- I'm 46, taught High School for 5 years, coached, have a security clearance, retired military -- I'm not some kid out of a 10 day wonder school. i know how to fly and how to teach or my instructor would not have signed me off.

Larry has over 10,000 hours, turbine type ratings, aerobatics, helicopters -- the works. He knows airplanes and he knows CFIs.

Anyway, he took some pictures of the dent today. He's ready to go on a rampage.

I said we'd give it one more shot next week. If he continues to play the game we're heading to the FSDO.

By the way -- I didn't fail -- yet. He didn't leave me with a letter of discontinuance, either.

He did leave me stranded at the airport, though. I had to call home and get a ride since there was no way I was going to fly the airplane to home base before the repairs were accomplished ad logged.

He was probably sitting at the end of the runway waiting for me to take off.

 

[dmccormack]

CFI initials are almost always given by an FAA Examiner.

If there's a DE that can do it, let me know!!!

 

[poadeleted20]

By the way -- I didn't fail -- yet. He didn't leave me with a letter of discontinuance, either.

I don't care if this guy has 30,000 hours in Space Shuttles -- he's operating on his own wavelength and should not be a DPE unless he can conform to FAA regulations and orders.

 

[TMetzinger]

CFI initials are almost always given by an FAA Examiner.

If there's a DE that can do it, let me know!!!

Around here (Northern VA, Washington and Baltimore FSDOs) the initial rides are given by inspectors unless they can't accomodate a student within a certain timeframe. Then the FSDO gives the student a couple of DPEs to try.

Add on ratings to the CFI cert are typically done by DPEs.

 

[KennyFlys]

There is no mention of static wicks anywhere in the POH.

One of the things I was busted on during my CFI oral was required equipment. While I named the usual suspects such as 91.205, Equipment List or MEL within the POH and ADs, he wanted to hear more. I had already busted on an earlier item so he took the opportunity to push me to learn more. I didn't take it as him being a pain. Those other sources of potential requirements are the Type Certificate Data Sheet, the "old" CARs and the Certification Package submitted to the FAA on a new design.

By the way -- I didn't fail -- yet. He didn't leave me with a letter of discontinuance, either.

Without the LOD, couldn't this ride be deemed to have never happen in the event something happen to this supposed DPE?

 

[TMetzinger]

He did leave me stranded at the airport, though. I had to call home and get a ride since there was no way I was going to fly the airplane to home base before the repairs were accomplished ad logged.

He was probably sitting at the end of the runway waiting for me to take off.

So, was this guy an FAA inspector or a DPE? That's still not clear to me.

 

[dmccormack]

He was an FAA employee -- an inspector, not a DPE.

 

[dmccormack]

He's not a DPE -- he's an FAA employee.

 

[TMetzinger]

Ron, what would be the proper way to make a complaint against the inspector? I imagine that life could get uncomfortable for a new CFI in this case, and I don't think whistleblower protections are of any use here.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron, what would be the proper way to make a complaint against the inspector? I imagine that life could get uncomfortable for a new CFI in this case, and I don't think whistleblower protections are of any use here.

Speak to the FSDO manager, and document everything. BTW, Operations Inspectors are specifically forbidden from taking any action regarding airworthiness without a consult from an Airworthiness Inspector -- this guy violated that one and is clearly working outside 8900.1 direction.

 

[dmccormack]

Speak to the FSDO manager, and document everything.

Done. We even took pictures of the dent, along with pennies and dimes for scale.

BTW, Operations Inspectors are specifically forbidden from taking any action regarding airworthiness without a consult from an Airworthiness Inspector -- this guy violated that one and is clearly working outside 8900.1 direction.

So let me get this straight...

The airplane was declared airworthy last annual. All required inspections and ADs have been complied with, and the preflight inspection by the PIC (me) deems the a/c airworthy.

So you're saying only and Airworthiness Inspector can make the determination that he (the Ops inspector) took upon himself to make?



So if he left, and I decided to fly back home, he'd have no grounds for enforcement action? Or would I have to wait until his AI came out and made the determination one way or the other?

BTW -- my IA said the a/c was airworthy after I told him what the inspector said.


Dan Mc

 

[poadeleted20]

So let me get this straight...

The airplane was declared airworthy last annual. All required inspections and ADs have been complied with, and the preflight inspection by the PIC (me) deems the a/c airworthy.

So you're saying only and Airworthiness Inspector can make the determination that he (the Ops inspector) took upon himself to make?

Yes.

So if he left, and I decided to fly back home, he'd have no grounds for enforcement action? Or would I have to wait until his AI came out and made the determination one way or the other?

Unless/until he hangs an ACN on your plane, you're free to go.

BTW -- my IA said the a/c was airworthy after I told him what the inspector said.

Your IA is qualified to make that determination; the Ops Inspector is not.

A. Responsibility for Airworthiness. The airworthiness of the aircraft is the responsibility of the pilot (part 91 , section (§) 91.3 ) and monitored by airworthiness inspectors. However, if an operations inspector finds an obviously unairworthy aircraft, it is the responsibility of the operations inspector to see that an Aircraft Condition Notice (FAA Form 8620-1) is issued. If accompanied by an airworthiness inspector, he or she may issue FAA Form 8620-1. However, an operations inspector may have to contact the nearest Flight Standards office to have an airworthiness inspector issue the notice.

BTW, there's nothing "obvious" about a missing static wick or a 3mm dent making a plane "unairworthy."

 

[dmccormack]

Excellent -- thanks so much!

 

[gibbons]

I've come to believe that any of us who were fortunate enough to pass on our first attempt at the CFI were simply fortunate enough to draw the right examiner. There always seems to be those who are more interested in displaying their power than actually doing their job and finding good CFI's. It's really too bad.

From what you've said it sure sounds like you're prepared and I'll bet you'll be a great instructor. Best of luck Dan.

 

[dmccormack]

I've come to believe that any of us who were fortunate enough to pass on our first attempt at the CFI were simply fortunate enough to draw the right examiner. There always seems to be those who are more interested in displaying their power than actually doing their job and finding good CFI's. It's really too bad.

DPEs have to deal with market forces -- fail everyone, no one will use you. Pass everyone, some will crash, you'll be out of a job.

So they have to find the line that matches up more with reality -- most applicants are OK, some are awesome, some are hazards.

The government inspector has no such pressure. Fail all? -- You're a toughie (and you get noticed).

Pass all? -- What's wrong with you?

It's somewhat kafka-esque.

From what you've said it sure sounds like you're prepared and I'll bet you'll be a great instructor. Best of luck Dan.

Thanks -- I appreciate that. I want to be a CFI for a few simple reasons:

• There's no better way to learn than to teach.
• I like helping people go from clueless to mastery.
• I like to teach -- it forces me to learn.
• You really don't know something until you can explain it clearly and simply.
• I get to fly in lots of different airplanes.
• I get to meet lots of different people -- all interesting.
• I have another excuse to hang out at the airport.

 

[KennyFlys]

DPEs have to deal with market forces -- fail everyone, no one will use you. Pass everyone, some will crash, you'll be out of a job.

So they have to find the line that matches up more with reality -- most applicants are OK, some are awesome, some are hazards.

The government inspector has no such pressure. Fail all? -- You're a toughie (and you get noticed).

Pass all? -- What's wrong with you?

It's somewhat kafka-esque.

The DPE who did my CFI ride was told a while back the FSDO would be taking over the CFI rides after staff was ramped up and prepared. His inspector told him, "You probably don't want to do them, anyway." Ben responded by saying he'd prefer to do the CFI rides. That way, he has an idea of what kind of students to expect for other rides.

Ben wasn't a tough buy but he didn't make it easy. The only book I had open was the PTS. I went to the FAR/AIM a couple times. My lesson plan book was next to me but never opened. The few oral items I failed on would have been no different with everything open and accessible in front of me. Several were things I had not used much but took for granted I knew them well in spite of not using them as basic private pilot knowledge.

The second time through, I slid straight through but not because Ben gave me a break. He made it clear the first time he'd be very disappointed if I returned and did not know the list of deficiency items I left with. His grandfather-like personality was one you simply did not want to disappoint.

 

[dmccormack]

Ben wasn't a tough buy but he didn't make it easy. The only book I had open was the PTS. I went to the FAR/AIM a couple times. My lesson plan book was next to me but never opened. The few oral items I failed on would have been no different with everything open and accessible in front of me. Several were things I had not used much but took for granted I knew them well in spite of not using them as basic private pilot knowledge.

The only book I referenced during my CFI oral was the A36 POH (once) and the A/C logbooks.

I brought a small white board and a model C172. I used the white board and model to explain turning flight.

He was there a bit late so I had books laid out everywhere -- every FAA Handbook, every AC, a ton of AOPA ASF pubs, PTS for PP, REcP, Comm, and CFI, FITS training and sample syllabus, my own PP, Comm, and Rec syllabus plus ASA and Jepp for each -- the works. Just about everything was tabbed in binders with post-it notes in relevant areas of the PTS, ACs, etc.

I had the A36 shop manual as well and I only wish I would have had the IPB with me (it was in the hangar).

I don't feel it was wasted effort, though as assembling all that stuff help give me a good education. I read the Jepp CFI book, all of Kershner's books, and of course all the FAA handbooks. That coupled with long postflight discussions at the airport restaurant with Larry, my CFI helped get it all straight in my head.

I didn't need to reference much during the oral, but I'm guessing he figured if we hit the books, I had what I needed in that room.

My approach is this -- I am operating at the CFI level of knowledge and flying skill and you (Mr inspector/examiner) are here to confirm that.

Not arrogantly, of course, but not, "give me my rating, pretty please?" either.

 

[dmccormack]

I'm scheduled for this Thursday (April 10th) but right now the wx looks like it will be poor Wednesday into Thursday.

I'm trying to get scheduled for tomorrow when we're expecting light winds, clear skies, and temps in the 70s!

This ain't easy as I have to have two airplanes scheduled and ready to go. The A36 is now good to go, but the CAP airplanes *should* be good (WV Wing does a very good job keeping up on maintenance, etc), but like all C172s has a few stop-drilled cracks in the wing tips.

We only need it for two t/o and landings, so hopefully the preflight will be normal and we'll just move right along...