CFI Checkride Oral Exam Issue

K

KennyFlys

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I'm currently preparing for the CFI Checkride. The DPE I'll be going to has suddenly changed how he conducts the oral exam. He allows no use of notes at all.

What little we've been able to glean, others have shown up with "notes" that practically recreate the detail in the Aviation Instructor's Handbook. Rather than using bullet points, they would read long phrases or sentences during the oral. It's clear the DPE fears candidates really do not know the information and that has driven him to deny use of notes.

My own outlines for the FOI are bullet points with about a half dozen words or so to highlight the particular term or concept. During the review with my instructor, I have single terms written in the PTS and build on those alone with an occasional reference to the AIH.

Have any instructors experienced this with a DPE? If so, how have you addressed it?

The argument I have is if the DPE expects purely a lecture presentation, then notes should be allowed as recommended in the AIH.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.
 
The DPE I had for my MEI (initial) asked for closed books during the FOI questions, but then allowed any FAA publication for the rest of the (5.5 hour) oral. He was looking for a synthesis of concepts, not just recitation of facts - lesson plans and lectures that included the how to, the what not to do, the proper citations to the FAR/AIM, a/c specs, instructor's manual, airplane flying handbook, PTSs, etc, etc. Even the FAA inspectors we used in Vegas (there were five) all allowed open books. I dunno :dunno:. Good luck, man, when's the ride?
 
If the examiner can't tell whether they understand the AIH material by having them teach while he acts as the befuddled student, then he shouldn't be giving folks their initial CFI checks. I would suggest meeting the DPE and finding out just what the deal is, and if it sounds too absurd, ask the FSDO for resolution.
 
My guess is that if you miss a few points during your "lecture" on a topic because you don't have notes, the examiner will ask questions that will remind you, in order to determine your knowledge of those points.

It sounds, however, like the issue is with knowledge of the Fundamentals of Instruction, which for my CFI checkrides was handled in a different manner than the rest of the material. I was not expected to "teach" the FOI, but rather to answer practical questions about its application. While the examiner acted as "the befuddled student" for the maneuvers and regulatory concepts, the FOI discussion was a simple discussion.

I would echo Ron's comment to discuss it with the examiner, however.

Fly safe! (and good luck)

David
 
I never took the FOI as I am an appointed instructor in a State University. However, I came with all my Federal publications, and I used 'em all. But they were not used to read therefrom, but used only at the "we can find it in....x-2-6"....or in the "flight Training handbook chapter 6"....it is defined as "XYZ".

After an hour of stump the chump it became teach me this......and I learn that. It was three of the most productive hours I think we mutually spent. I remained in correspondence with the guy until his passing....
 
Sounds good to me, you shouldn't need your "notes", just the proper reference materials to be able to show the student (DPE) where to find information. Think of it like a checklist, the basic boldface items you should have committed to memory where as the details you should have reference to.
 
I echo what Bruce C said. If I didn't remember the answer, I would state where the reference is located and look it up. Brought all my publications and forms as backup. I was told ahead of time this was allowed, but that a good effort must be made to not rely on the notes/books much.

Best of luck to you!

-WT
CFIA-IA-MEI
 
KennyFlys said:
I'm currently preparing for the CFI Checkride. The DPE I'll be going to has suddenly changed how he conducts the oral exam. He allows no use of notes at all.
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This is absurd...you should be able to use some notes during that oral exam.I cant believe this is coming from a DPE either, they are supposed to be one of the "good guys" as compared to your typical ego-centric FAA SI's. My oral was conducted at the Las-Vegas FSDO and I was allowed notes, and it was a comforting to know they were there if I really needed them during that ridiculous yet sucessfull 6.5 hour ordeal. I remember he asked me what a commercial helicopter pilot would need to add the aicraft category to his cert...glad I had already researched and had notes on that one and had a FAR/AIM to reference
 
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Personally, I've never used "notes" for a checkride. What I couldn't remember, I looked up, generally simply for an exact wording of a reg or procedure, or for an illustration that was beyond my artistic capabilities. Every once in a while, you have a complete brain fade, but as long as it doesn't happen regularly, you're probably ok. The DPE will just grill you a little more to determine your exact knowledge level.

The lesson plans that I had to write during an oral were pretty much off-the-cuff (IIRC, the lesson plan was on "wave soaring" for my initial CFI), but I did consult with my reference material for certain details. That lesson plan, then, was used to "teach" the lesson.

If you're properly prepared, the lack of notes shouldn't be worrisome. If you aren't properly prepared, notes aren't going to help anyway.

Fly safe!

David
 
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I appreciate that I got my CFI long ago and things have changed. But there were no notes just FAR's, AIM's and manuals. The examiner would pick a lesson and have you develop the lesson plan then give you the chance to show your stuff. I wonder if the examiner is over 50 and is going back to the way it used to be. Not so much worried about a perfect lesson plan but concerned if you can teach your student to be safe? Many of my check rides have some of my best learning experiences. Good Luck! :)
 
We've yet to really discuss the matter with the DPE. It is clear he's concerned with knowledge as opposed to one simply reading lines from an outline or "notes." I'm still of the opinion a candidate should be using what are clearly notes with bullet points and not a recreation of the AIH, AFM or PHAK.

Right now, there are two of us scheduled. The other guy has his oral on the 19th and mine is on the 21st. On the 29th, we both fly up for his flight portion in the morning and mine in the afternoon.

I looked at other options, including going to an Alabama DPE that was often used up until a few years ago. Oklahoma City says you can go to any FSDO you so choose. But, first Atlanta and now Birmingham has taken a proprietary role regarding CFI initial exams. The DPE I spoke with used to do at least a half dozen CFI initials a week. He hasn't been allowed to for the last two years. My school maintains an office in TN for the sole purpose of getting CFI checkrides through in a timely manner with a DPE. Otherwise, it can take thirty days with Atlanta FSDO and another thirty days for a possible retake.

Atlanta will at least issue a letter without much argument for the larger flight schools if they can't get it done within fifteen days. Birmingham makes no exception. You schedule on their web site and they will get back to you within a week to schedule within another fifteen days.

So, it seems FSDOs around the country are becoming somewhat possessive of CFI exams. One question out there is... are FSDOs attempting to control CFI candidates by a high failure rate or is there truly an effort to establish high standards? Sometimes, you look at the experiences of others and wonder. The latter is certainly a good idea. The funny thing is for those DPEs who take their job very seriously yet tend to have a pass rate greater than twenty percent are given greater scrutiny by their FSDO.
 
Didn't use notes, and I doubt the FAA examiner (not a DPE) would have allowed it. No problem anyway.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Didn't use notes, and I doubt the FAA examiner (not a DPE) would have allowed it. No problem anyway.
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Here's the funny thing... Atlanta FSDO encourages use of notes no differently than teaching an actual student. They don't want the CFI going by strictly memory but rather make it a constructive line of steps with correct information.
 
KennyFlys said:
One question out there is... are FSDOs attempting to control CFI candidates by a high failure rate or is there truly an effort to establish high standards?
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I believe the FAA's intent is the latter, and the initiative comes from HQ, not the FSDOs.
The funny thing is for those DPEs who take their job very seriously yet tend to have a pass rate greater than twenty percent are given greater scrutiny by their FSDO.
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I'd like to see concrete evidence of this. At least for pilot certificates and ratings, the FSDO doesn't usually get interested unless the pass rate is well over 90%. Of course, since initial CFI rides are by HQ direction normally performed only by FSDOs, the sample size of DPE-conducted initial CFI rides may be small.
 
KennyFlys said:
Here's the funny thing... Atlanta FSDO encourages use of notes no differently than teaching an actual student. They don't want the CFI going by strictly memory but rather make it a constructive line of steps with correct information.
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The written materials are always there as a resource to back up the CFI's knowledge. They wanted to see what we knew verbally, plus where to find details in writing.
 
If ya need notes, ya ain't ready.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'd like to see concrete evidence of this. At least for pilot certificates and ratings, the FSDO doesn't usually get interested unless the pass rate is well over 90%. Of course, since initial CFI rides are by HQ direction normally performed only by FSDOs, the sample size of DPE-conducted initial CFI rides may be small.
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My apologies for not being clearer. I was referring to strictly CFI initials. Our schools owner once had it shared with him with by an out-going POI there was a push to control the pass rates for CFIs.

The last number I heard for Atlanta, the overall pass rate is 15% on first attempts.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
The written materials are always there as a resource to back up the CFI's knowledge. They wanted to see what we knew verbally, plus where to find details in writing.
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That's how the FSDO examiners have been. It's just hard as heck to get a timely appointment with them. The couple guys candidates have ended up with have had pretty decent orals and were expected to use notes no differently than they would be expected to teach students.

The key thing on notes as I stated previously, notes for a CFI oral should be limited to bullet points with a half dozen words at most for each point. The entire purpose is to conduct each section of the oral in an orderly fashion. The guy who can go to his CFI initial and pull six to seven hours worth directly from their brain without notes is probably not becoming a CFI for their primary employment.
 
EdFred said:
If ya need notes, ya ain't ready.
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Okay, smart guy... WITHOUT looking at any materials, what are the five potential endorsements required for a commercial student? You're doing this from memory now.

Come on... be honest about it! :D
 
KennyFlys said:
Okay, smart guy... WITHOUT looking at any materials, what are the five potential endorsements required for a commercial student? You're doing this from memory now.

Come on... be honest about it! :D
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If I were dealing with this question in the manner that I would with a student, I wouldn't use notes...I would show in the PTS, the appropriate paragraphs in Part 61/91, and maybe the current version of AC61-65 why these endorsements are required and what they should look like.

Using non-FAA documentation for this type of thing opens up some real potential for using non-current information with your students. Personally, I think it's also doing a disservice to the student in that it teaches them that their memory or personal notes taken way back when are substitutes for the the official source.

Fly safe!

David
 
MauleSkinner said:
If I were dealing with this question in the manner that I would with a student, I wouldn't use notes...I would show in the PTS, the appropriate paragraphs in Part 61/91, and maybe the current version of AC61-65 why these endorsements are required and what they should look like.

Using non-FAA documentation for this type of thing opens up some real potential for using non-current information with your students. Personally, I think it's also doing a disservice to the student in that it teaches them that their memory or personal notes taken way back when are substitutes for the the official source.

Fly safe!

David
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Agreed... head straight to AC 61-65E. But, even then a couple which are not listed are often missed; one of them only a potential requirement.
 
KennyFlys said:
Agreed... head straight to AC 61-65E. But, even then a couple which are not listed are often missed; one of them only a potential requirement.
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That's why I listed the regs and PTS first, with 61-65E being a "maybe".

Fly safe!

David
 
KennyFlys said:
Okay, smart guy... WITHOUT looking at any materials, what are the five potential endorsements required for a commercial student? You're doing this from memory now.

Come on... be honest about it! :D
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citizenship
3 hours in 60 days
written
practical
complex
(and if they didn't score 100% - deficiency on the written)

So, I guess that's 6. :D

Time to go check the AC to see how I did.
 
EdFred said:
citizenship
3 hours in 60 days
written
practical
complex
(and if they didn't score 100% - deficiency on the written)

So, I guess that's 6. :D

Time to go check the AC to see how I did.
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Don't forget High Performance and Tailwheel so I can take the checkride in the Staggerwing :yes:
 
MauleSkinner said:
Don't forget High Performance and Tailwheel so I can take the checkride in the Staggerwing :yes:
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LOL. That's not required for a commercial. Plus, I don't even have my t/w yet. I can't give ya one. :(
 
EdFred said:
LOL. That's not required for a commercial. Plus, I don't even have my t/w yet. I can't give ya one. :(
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But they're required if that's the airplane I use for the comm checkride. If I've already got the endorsements, can you give me the commercial instruction?

The complex wouldn't be required if I took my commercial checkride in a glider, but if I were only ASEL-rated, and was taking the commercial in a Baron, there might be some solo endorsements involved as well.

Sure, they're not "normal", but that's why I don't agree with using notes...if they don't apply to all circumstances, they have way too much potential for getting somebody in trouble.

Fly safe!

David
 
EdFred said:
citizenship
3 hours in 60 days
written
practical
complex
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Citizenship isn't an endorsement per 61-65E but verification of identification and age are required on page three. I know schools "endorse" logbooks indicating the verification but I cannot find a specific requirement for such an endorsement.

As a whole, my school goes into quite a bit of detail but mainly due to requirements for handling a large number of alien flight students. Inspections by the TSA come as often as the FSDO. I'll have to inquire more about endorsements on Tuesday.

The one not mentioned regards covering deficient written test subjects.

As mentioned, at least a complex endorsement and possibly a high performance endorsment.
 
EdFred said:
See the last one I have in parantheses.
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Considering what I have quoted in my post, you must have made an edit pretty quick after I grabbed the quote and before it wouild have placed an edit notation in the post.

So, you did get all of them. Okie dokie.
 
Lincoln FSDO allows open book (as of yesterday). I think the goal is to make sure the CFI can reference the material being queried. I had in my possession the FAR/AIM, AIH, AFH, PHAK, Private and Commercial PTS, W&B Handbook, a bunch of ACs though the only one that I was queried on was 61-65E endorsement list. I didn't need notes, all I needed to know was where to look up info if I needed to. Pretty much how you would do things as a CFI, know the correct info or if you need more info, know where to find it.
 
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In the CFI PTS, in the front part, the term "instructional knowledge" is defined like this: "Instructional knowledge" means the instructor applicant is capable of using the appropriate reference to provide the "application or correlative level of knowledge" of a subject matter topic, procedure, or maneuver.

I don't think "personal notes" is appropriate, but the PTS requires that you be able to use the listed references for each task. That is, the Airplane Flying Handbook, the PHAK, The FAR's, the AIM, etc., all the references shown for that task.

You should teach the use of these publications, and where to find specific info, and you will be tested on the applicable use of these materials.

If an examiner says you cannot use any books, please show him/her this paragraph in the CFI PTS.
 
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