Cessna With Droop Tips.

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Wbauman

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Wbauman
Boy am I having a time landing this thing. I mean I land but I wouldnt call it great. I only have @6 hours in this plane. I recently got my private and this is so different from the trainer I rented. I know its all about air speed. Anyone have any tips that has flown A 172 with the droop tips.
 
Wbauman said:
Boy am I having a time landing this thing. I mean I land but I wouldnt call it great. I only have @6 hours in this plane. I recently got my private and this is so different from the trainer I rented. I know its all about air speed. Anyone have any tips that has flown A 172 with the droop tips.
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What model Cessna? All of our club 172s have STOL kits including the "droop tips". I just fly final at 70 mph with full flaps and they land easily enough.
 
I had my Arrow firewalled the other day and I'll be damned if a Cessna with droop tips didn't fly by me like I was standing still.
 
why were you doing a full throttle runup?
 
Those droop tips are part of a STOL kit. It allows your Cessna to land at lower speeds. My stall speed dirty is about 45 mph. Not sure how slow because that is the bottom end of the airspeed indicator. So 1.3 * 45 = 58 or 60. I come in over the threshold at about 70 to 65 because anything slower scares people. I have a friend who was afraid to land that slowly and we finally got her to try it. Amazing. No more bouncing and porpoising.

So, go up and find out what your stall speed really is and calculate your landing speed.
 
Yeah I have been slowing down the last three evenings and it gets better. I was down to 45mph and that seemed the best of my landings. Just hard to make yourself fly that slow.

My trainer would drop like a brick when you pulled the power out. This thing just keeps flying.

It is a 1975 model 172
 
Wbauman said:
Yeah I have been slowing down the last three evenings and it gets better. I was down to 45mph and that seemed the best of my landings. Just hard to make yourself fly that slow.

My trainer would drop like a brick when you pulled the power out. This thing just keeps flying.

It is a 1975 model 172
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Should be a 172M. Same as I fly.

I hope that 45 mph is at touchdown. You should be between 65 and 70 mph on the approach. Don't let it drop below 65. Pull the power once the runway is assured and just hold it off. You don't need to be looking at the airspeed, just hold it off.
 
I have a 1974 C-172M, too. Also, try leaving in just a tiny smidge of power before the wheels touch down. (Hope you don't mind the technical jargon.)
 
Yeah 45 at touchdown.LOL

I come across the threshold at 65
 
Wbauman said:
Yeah 45 at touchdown.LOL
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You guys amaze me.

I made a point of checking to see what speed I lift off at once (but have since forgotten what it said). But I'm pretty sure I have never looked at the ASI as I am touching down. The only thing I see is the runway.
 
A cessna with droop tips...wear the right sized bra.

Oh wait, TIPS.....
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You guys amaze me.

I made a point of checking to see what speed I lift off at once (but have since forgotten what it said). But I'm pretty sure I have never looked at the ASI as I am touching down. The only thing I see is the runway.
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An airline pilot I know who flies CRJ200's was once asked how fast his plane is going when it lands...his reply..
"I have no idea...I'm usually to busy landing the thing to look at how fast it is going"
 
On my 172P I make the approach at 60k and over the fence at 55k then I transistion to the runway and disregard air speed. If I'm at max gross or have some wind shear then I maintain 60k to touch down.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You guys amaze me.

I made a point of checking to see what speed I lift off at once (but have since forgotten what it said). But I'm pretty sure I have never looked at the ASI as I am touching down. The only thing I see is the runway.
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I would agree that this is a perception and feel thing. The more time I get I would assume I will get better but newer pilots I would think need something to go by and airspeed has to be it.

Its frustrating to me because I am the person who wants to be good at everything I do and this is throwing me for a loop. I know I will get it eventually.

Thanks for the pointers.
 
Wbauman said:
I would agree that this is a perception and feel thing. The more time I get I would assume I will get better but newer pilots I would think need something to go by and airspeed has to be it.

Its frustrating to me because I am the person who wants to be good at everything I do and this is throwing me for a loop. I know I will get it eventually.

Thanks for the pointers.
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No, you do not have to be looking at the airspeed after you round out. Concentrate on holding it off the runway. The airspeed at that point has zero significance.
 
Holding it off would assume I have the right height above the surface when I made the transition, Correct?
 
Wbauman said:
Holding it off would assume I have the right height above the surface when I made the transition, Correct?
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In a Cessna, you can round out level easily 20 or 30 feet above the runway and let it come down closer as it slows, you do not need to be super precise at first. You have time. In many other aircraft, you do not have that luxury unless you hold power which then eats up the runway.
 
If you're flying a Cessna with droop tips that truly are a part of a complete STOL kit, the STC probably has a POH addendum that is technically required to be in the aircraft. Ask the owner where the POH changes are. They'll include (usually) adjusted stall and approach speeds.

Also keep in mind that usually the largest airspeed indication deviations (calibrated vs indicated) are slow at high angles of attack. Most POH items are shown in indicated airspeed, so there's usually no calculations to be done, but some are just listed as "airspeed" and may need corrections from calibrated.

You really need the POH changes to know for sure. Tony's right, slow down. I'm adding, "find out where the POH changes went and get yourself a copy to study" to go along with that.

Take the thing out to the practice area or anywhere at altitude and do some slow flight in it to find out how it behaves and how much you can slow it up and how much power it takes to maintain level flight with landing flaps and how much power for a nice 500 FPM descent. Apply new knowledge to approach and landing process. ;)
 
This plane was purchased about 4 months ago and I did receive all records. I had a prebuy done and this was never mentioned. I will look tonight and see if any info is there.
 
Ok found it. Was done in 1991 STC SA2075WE and 43.13-1A and says weight and balance change noted in logs adn POH. Does not mention a chage in stall and aproach speeds.
 
Wbauman said:
Ok found it. Was done in 1991 STC SA2075WE and 43.13-1A and says weight and balance change noted in logs adn POH. Does not mention a chage in stall and aproach speeds.
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There may not be an "official" change. But it never hurts to look per Nates suggestion.
 
Wbauman said:
Ok found it. Was done in 1991 STC SA2075WE and 43.13-1A and says weight and balance change noted in logs adn POH. Does not mention a chage in stall and aproach speeds.
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Madras Super Tips

http://www.cessna170.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8037

file.php
 
If it was just the tips, and didn't include other changes, I would expect better low speed characteristics, but stall speed may not have "officially" changed. May need to just go get it slow at altitude and see how it behaves, and then practice landing it. It'll probably want to float. As someone said, just hold it off and don't let it land on a nice long runway and figure out where it starts to really bleed off energy and settle.
 
Yeah good thing my home airport is 6000 feet.
 
Wbauman said:
Ok found it. Was done in 1991 STC SA2075WE and 43.13-1A and says weight and balance change noted in logs adn POH. Does not mention a chage in stall and aproach speeds.
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As I read in another thread here (no direct knowledge of this) changes to V-speeds etc are only required if the applied STC makes the V-speeds etc. worse. So if your landing speed is lower because of the mod then there may be nothing in the POH Supplement.

Go fly it, do slow flight at altitude. Make your own V-speed supplement.

-Skip
 
Wbauman said:
I would agree that this is a perception and feel thing. The more time I get I would assume I will get better but newer pilots I would think need something to go by and airspeed has to be it.

Its frustrating to me because I am the person who wants to be good at everything I do and this is throwing me for a loop. I know I will get it eventually.

Thanks for the pointers.
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Don't get me wrong...nailing the proper speed on the approach is important. But once you flare, you should be looking out the window, not at the airspeed indicator.
 
We bought a '74 172M with the Madras super tips. Big droop. They made absolutely no difference to stall, cruise or climb. We removed them soon after we got it home when we found that the STC didn't apply to the M model. Installing the standard Cessna tips (tiny bit of droop, just enough to be fashionable in 1974) got it legal and also allowed us to spin it, which the tip STC prohibited.

The '75 model: did it have an airspeed indicator or knotmeter? Cessna changed it somewhere between '74 and '76. We approached at 65 MPH or 55 kts with full flap. Touching down at 45 MPH is still plenty fast and therefore flat, and might be a three-point landing that can get ugly. The stall horn (if it works) should be blaring just before or during touchdown.

Like others said, take it up, set the flaps to where you usually set them and set the power to idle, and gradually slow it down by raising the nose and see where the VSI starts indicating more sink, and where it finally stalls. A 172 can fly pretty slow, and in ground effect it will fly even slower. If you aren't able to land and stop it in less than 1000 feet, you're likely touching down too fast.

Dan
 
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Yes has a airspeed indicator. I finished up my private in a 172 and there is a huge difference in how this one flies with the tips. I will take all the suggestions and try to apply them. Let you know how it goes.

On a side note I'm flying my first cross county outside of flight training. Going @189 NM. Flying just below cape fear to 60j.
 
I immediately thought of that episode of The Simpsons called "Cape Feare." I don't know why I didn't think of the actual movie.

Anyway, enjoy!
 
Having flown 172's with standard and droop tips and no other differences I can tell you that they make little or no difference. Fly the plane at the right speed as the others have noted and you'll do fine. If the droops are part of the STOL kit it just means you can land that much slower. Learn your plane as they are all a bit different.

Frank
 
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