Cessna 182 pre-buy Frustration

[Joseph DeFelice]

Did all of the mental gymnastics for the last several years. Worked to get the ppl and working toward the instrument. Defined the mission and calculated all of the acceptable costs and made compromises to satisfy my skill and not my ego. Found the plane at a good price, talked over all of the important stuff including damage history. Saw detailed pictures in super resolution, got an insurance quote, and had the plane ferried to my mechanic for a pre-buy after contract agreed to deliver an airworthy plane. Monies went into escrow. Able to refuse to accept within 48 hours for any reason. Found the following squawks:

1. #2 cylinder has a bad valve and was already lapped once - need a new jug. All others 64-70
2. Prop leak and needs to be pulled and inspected
3. strobes very weak
4. left nav light out, hopefully just a bulb

So far, all of the above can be handles, but-
5. the skin on the top left rudder wrinkled and hinge corroded
6. skin top inboard area of the right elevator damaged
7. skin top outboard area right stabilizer wrinkled

None of the damage noted in the logs, plane painted without any repair and no obvious bumps (hangar rash). Called agent who had no information, called owner who could add nothing and waiting to call the mechanic to see if he has any info.

My mechanic suggests pulling the rudder, elevator and inspecting for corrosion or further damage - about $500 - and suggests that it could be costly to repair if present. Otherwise, the plane is cherry 1979 182 Q with low time engine, new paint, and average interior with Cessna radios and add on intercom.

Must decide what to do by Wednesday morning. Just a little bummed at this point. Suggestions.

BTW, Cessna still not on the spell checker.

 

[schomburg]

I'm part-owner in a 182P and would be hesitant to move ahead with this deal. Fresh paint can cover a multitude of sins. Old Cessna radios are not that desirable. Visible aft damage & corrosion not in the logs is a red flag, as it has not been dealt with. The prop leak could also be expensive if due to a bad hub. A plus would be long-range tanks if no seepage is evident. Possibly get a worst-case estimate from your mechanic and deduct that from the price, then keep all fingers crossed. You may, in fact, be considering the purchase of a marginally airworthy aircraft ... not a good thing. Even if the "price is right" to accommodate repair costs, the down-time and uncertainty involved may be undesirable. Sorry! Try a Google search on the N-number, which can sometimes yield interesting clues to the aircraft history.

Dick Schomburg
Hillsboro, Oregon

 

[Henning]

Did all of the mental gymnastics for the last several years. Worked to get the ppl and working toward the instrument. Defined the mission and calculated all of the acceptable costs and made compromises to satisfy my skill and not my ego. Found the plane at a good price, talked over all of the important stuff including damage history. Saw detailed pictures in super resolution, got an insurance quote, and had the plane ferried to my mechanic for a pre-buy after contract agreed to deliver an airworthy plane. Monies went into escrow. Able to refuse to accept within 48 hours for any reason. Found the following squawks:

1. #2 cylinder has a bad valve and was already lapped once - need a new jug. All others 64-70
2. Prop leak and needs to be pulled and inspected
3. strobes very weak
4. left nav light out, hopefully just a bulb

So far, all of the above can be handles, but-
5. the skin on the top left rudder wrinkled and hinge corroded
6. skin top inboard area of the right elevator damaged
7. skin top outboard area right stabilizer wrinkled

None of the damage noted in the logs, plane painted without any repair and no obvious bumps (hangar rash). Called agent who had no information, called owner who could add nothing and waiting to call the mechanic to see if he has any info.

My mechanic suggests pulling the rudder, elevator and inspecting for corrosion or further damage - about $500 - and suggests that it could be costly to repair if present. Otherwise, the plane is cherry 1979 182 Q with low time engine, new paint, and average interior with Cessna radios and add on intercom.

Must decide what to do by Wednesday morning. Just a little bummed at this point. Suggestions.

BTW, Cessna still not on the spell checker.

Unless this plane is at a price point below $40k, I'd walk away from it. You've got a pretty good project on your hands there. I'd suspect there is a bunch of corosion inside. How you can say all the above things, and then still use the word "Cherry" about this plane wonders me. Don't get in a buyers rush now and delude yourself. This one sounds like a walk.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Joe:

I'm going through similair issues looking at Barons. The best ones are the most difficult to find. From what you've said, I'd sure back off unless you're prepared to put quite a bit of money in this plane and to have the down time associated with it.
You have to decide if you want a real nice plane that doesn't require fix up (and are willing to pay a premium for that) or, if youi want a plane to fix up (with a commenserately lower price). There are a lot of planes out there priced at the top of the retail market with flaws. I'm sure findin 'em.

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS

 

[Skip Miller]

Unless this plane is at a price point below $40k, I'd walk away from it. You've got a pretty good project on your hands there. I'd suspect there is a bunch of corosion inside. How you can say all the above things, and then still use the word "Cherry" about this plane wonders me. Don't get in a buyers rush now and delude yourself. This one sounds like a walk.

The problem is that most planes that are really "Cherry" are sold by word of mouth. No, I have no facts or statistics to back that up. If you know what you want, get involved with the Owners Association and network, network, network!

-Skip

 

[Mark S]

Did all of the mental gymnastics for the last several years. Worked to get the ppl and working toward the instrument. Defined the mission and calculated all of the acceptable costs and made compromises to satisfy my skill and not my ego. Found the plane at a good price, talked over all of the important stuff including damage history. Saw detailed pictures in super resolution, got an insurance quote, and had the plane ferried to my mechanic for a pre-buy after contract agreed to deliver an airworthy plane. Monies went into escrow. Able to refuse to accept within 48 hours for any reason. Found the following squawks:

1. #2 cylinder has a bad valve and was already lapped once - need a new jug. All others 64-70
2. Prop leak and needs to be pulled and inspected
3. strobes very weak
4. left nav light out, hopefully just a bulb

So far, all of the above can be handles, but-
5. the skin on the top left rudder wrinkled and hinge corroded
6. skin top inboard area of the right elevator damaged
7. skin top outboard area right stabilizer wrinkled

None of the damage noted in the logs, plane painted without any repair and no obvious bumps (hangar rash). Called agent who had no information, called owner who could add nothing and waiting to call the mechanic to see if he has any info.

My mechanic suggests pulling the rudder, elevator and inspecting for corrosion or further damage - about $500 - and suggests that it could be costly to repair if present. Otherwise, the plane is cherry 1979 182 Q with low time engine, new paint, and average interior with Cessna radios and add on intercom.

Must decide what to do by Wednesday morning. Just a little bummed at this point. Suggestions.

BTW, Cessna still not on the spell checker.

I would walk on this one and keep looking. Join the Cessna Pilots Association (www.cessna.org) and post that you are looking for a nice 182. This group is very knowledgeable about their planes and can help a lot.

You will get your membership money back in the first month of plane ownership.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Joe-

I'll pitch-in that I agree with the others, and I am a recent buyer of 182Q ('77). You may well be looking at very serious problems at both ends of this plane (tail and prop). I'd say you have two choices: 1) get an absolutely worst-case estimate of costs to repair everything, then add another 25% contingency, and subtract this from the purchase price *and* be prepared to not fly for quite sometime while everything is being fixed, or 2) start shopping elsewhere, your pre-purchase inspection dollars were well spent, cut your loss and move on.

I definitely recommend joining the Cessna Pilots Association. I joined about 9 months before I bought and learned everything I could about the model first. If you don't own John Frank's 182 Buyers Guide, call CPA and get one today!

My plane was bought from a CPA member, and was never advertised except very briefly on the CPA web board. The good ones sell very quickly. If it's been on the market more than ~3 months, there's probably something fishy about it, but not necessarily a show-stopper.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide to do!

Jeff

 

[bbchien]

Joe-

I'll pitch-in that I agree with the others, and I am a recent buyer of 182Q ('77). You may well be looking at very serious problems at both ends of this plane (tail and prop). I'd say you have two choices: 1) get an absolutely worst-case estimate of costs to repair everything, then add another 25% contingency, and subtract this from the purchase price *and* be prepared to not fly for quite sometime while everything is being fixed, or 2) start shopping elsewhere, your pre-purchase inspection dollars were well spent, cut your loss and move on.

I definitely recommend joining the Cessna Pilots Association. I joined about 9 months before I bought and learned everything I could about the model first. If you don't own John Frank's 182 Buyers Guide, call CPA and get one today!

My plane was bought from a CPA member, and was never advertised except very briefly on the CPA web board. The good ones sell very quickly. If it's been on the market more than ~3 months, there's probably something fishy about it, but not necessarily a show-stopper.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide to do!

Jeff

RUN........!

 

[Joseph DeFelice]

Update on the pre-buy turn out to be not so bad. It appears that the owner is willing to fix the cylinder (new jug), have the prop pulled and fixed, repair all of the corrosion (rudder hinge and minor interior skin). The rudder and right horizontal stabilizer do not appear the serious and the owner is willing to have it inspected by an IA and give an allowance for repairs. All other non-airworthiness issues are my problem. The agent has suggested an $8,000 decrease in price and I have these fixed at trusted shops.


Again, the plane is in great shape and was not on the market for more than a few days. Nothing showed up on an internet search by the way of damage. The plane is otherwise hard to find anything wrong even by my compullsive mechanic.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Joe-

Not having anything show up on the databases for damage doesn't mean much. I bought my plane knowing that it had some significant damage history that wasn't in any database. I was comfortable with this because the logs (and FAA 337s) were complete, and there were a couple incidences of hangar rash repairs that were also well documented. It appeared to me the previous owners cared enough to do things right. The concern I'd have with the plane you're looking at is that there apparently was damage that wasn't fixed, so what else was broken and not fixed? Also, new paint jobs can easily hide damage and corrosion too - I'd find out as much as I could about how the paint job was done, and the reputation of the shop that did it. I recommend going with a full annual inspection on this bird before agreeing to purchase it.

Jeff

 

[Joseph DeFelice]

The saga continued today when the agent had a Cessna repair manager inspect the plane. He also confirmed that the damage to the rudder, stabilizer and elevator had to be repaired. He suspected backing into something and stressing the elevator and wind damage to the rudder. 8K estimate to remove, inspect and repair. This would be tacked onto the 4-5K for the mechanical problems. The owner, paint shop, ferry pilot and agent have no idea what happened. They are going to look into insurance repair.

I explained that even if repaired, my confidence was destroyed with the plane presenting with this damage and having been present when painted, a patch on the trim tab and metal crimpted back in place with pliers.

I am walking away from this one. Anyone with a quality 182 or equivalent machine, let me know. I am ready to buy now.

Back to the drawing board.

 

[Henning]

The saga continued today when the agent had a Cessna repair manager inspect the plane. He also confirmed that the damage to the rudder, stabilizer and elevator had to be repaired. He suspected backing into something and stressing the elevator and wind damage to the rudder. 8K estimate to remove, inspect and repair. This would be tacked onto the 4-5K for the mechanical problems. The owner, paint shop, ferry pilot and agent have no idea what happened. They are going to look into insurance repair.

I explained that even if repaired, my confidence was destroyed with the plane presenting with this damage and having been present when painted, a patch on the trim tab and metal crimpted back in place with pliers.

I am walking away from this one. Anyone with a quality 182 or equivalent machine, let me know. I am ready to buy now.

Back to the drawing board.

Probably best. I noticed you're in Palm Harbor, where do you fly out of?

 

[schomburg]

Sounds like the right decision, Joe.

As a part owner of a 182P for several years now, including recently going thru instrument training in it, I have developed significant respect for the general design and the way the compromises have been balanced. Especially with long-range tanks, it is quite mission-flexible, and seems to me to be a robust, stable, and reasonably-spacious machine.

I think you're on the right track ... and do check out the Cessna Pilots Assn.

Regards,
Dick Schomburg
Hillsboro, Oregon

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Joe,

I know this isn't easy, but I think you made a good decision. I don't see any Q model 182s currently listed on the Cessna Pilots Association site, though there is a nice "P" model (but it's in Fresno, CA), and some older models, and a couple R182s. The last nice Q model basically was gone in about a day (it was a really nice one).

Is there a range of models/years you're considering within a price range? Again, if you join CPA and post your desires on the Wanted/For Sale section, you'll have many good eyes helping you look. A lot of times it can be an "I know someone who's thinking about selling" situation. My CPA membership dues have been recovered several times over already.

Jeff

 

[pete177]

=
1. #2 cylinder has a bad valve and was already lapped once - need a new jug. All others 64-70
2. Prop leak and needs to be pulled and inspected
3. strobes very weak
4. left nav light out, hopefully just a bulb

So far, all of the above can be handles, but-
5. the skin on the top left rudder wrinkled and hinge corroded
6. skin top inboard area of the right elevator damaged
7. skin top outboard area right stabilizer wrinkled

I realize you've decided not to buy it after the pre-buy, but doesnt it seem that the owner actively attempted to hide airworthiness issues, specifically the wrinkled skins and corrosion? Post hurricane florida airplane with wrinkled skin? Corrosion. Airframe Overstress? Electrical system impedence changed by corroded wires and connections? New paint?...because apparently, that was the best place for the owner to spend his maintenance dollar....right I'd be looking for my pre-buy monies refunded by the owner. It all sounds like premeditated misrepresentation to me. 64-70 is low for lycoming...not sure what motor is in that plane.
My mooney was stuck on the ramp in florida for the 3 hurricanes. Any metal not covered with paint had surface corrosion on it by the time I picked it up, and that was in only 2 months. Thankfully, it was completely corrosion x'd spring before last. The stuff is still coming out of the rivets I'm sure this is an overreaction, but after seeing that, you couldnt give me a florida airplane at any price.
Pete

 

[Jeff Oslick]

64-70 is low for lycoming...not sure what motor is in that plane.

The 182Q has a Continental O-470 engine. 64-70/80 compressions aren't at all uncommon/abnormal. TCM has a good service bulletin regarding compression check interpretation for these engines:
http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/SB03-3.pdf

Jeff

 

[Joseph DeFelice]

Thanks for the input. It wasn't too tough to walk away after the craft was misrepresented. But, I did visually inspect this one for damage, corrosion and saw nothing else. A broker friend of the mechanic values this plane at $85,000 if the damage is repaired properly and the mechanical squacks are addressed.

I still can't go for a plane that will carry a damage history that was not documented well in the logs.

Moving on and looking at a plane in Ohio. Hope to strike a deal and bring this one to PIE (St. Pete/Clearwater Airport)

Safe flying.