Cessna 172/182 IFR approach speeds

alfadog

alfadog

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alfadog
Can y'all please help me out with some advice on approach speeds in the 172 and 182. Thanks in advance!

Turbulence and weather are not a factor in my examples.

Let us say we are in an IFR cruise descent nearing our destination airport. Please talk to me about the speed step-downs, where and what speed.

Let us say that we are at 120 kt in a C-172 in cruise descent (the exact speed in cruise descent is not important). Please walk me through your speeds through the approach up to the MDA/DA. When and what speed(s).

Also, do you carry flaps before MDA/DA? How much and when?

Let us say that we are at 135 kt in a C-182 in cruise descent (the exact speed in cruise descent is not important). Please walk me through your speeds through the approach up to the MDA/DA. When and what speed(s).

Also, do you carry flaps before MDA/DA? How much and when?
 
It does depend on the type of approach and what the controller does if you are receiving vectors to final.

You might consider establishing three profiles for each aircraft.

In Range - This is where you are on or near the approach. Receiving vectors to final or actually flying the approach. You've got some miles to cover. You can fly this however quickly you want. In a 172 or 182 I would recommend picking an economy cruise speed.

Approaching the FAF - You need to slow down to your final approach speed and configure the airplane for approach (GUMPS). For a 172 I would use 90 knots, no flaps. Can't comment on the 182. I would recommend timing this so you are at approach speed, with your GUMP check completed at least a minute before you are at the FAF.

FAF to Runway - You have the airplane configured, at approach speed and you intercept the glide slope (or are descending to MDA w/o GS) Pull the throttle back to your predetermined setting (1900 RPM might work on the 172) and simultaneously give the yoke a gentle nudge forward. You are now hopefully at the correct airspeed, pitch and right on the glide slope. All you have to do is track the localizer, glide slope and watch your altitude.

Runway in sight? Add flaps, trim, land. It is prudent to follow the glide slope down to the runway. At night or in low vis, its a must. If the airport has a VASI you can use that too.

If the runway is not in sight, you are already configured for a missed approach. Add power and fly the plane.
 
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dell30rb said:
For a 172 I would use 90 knots, no flaps.
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One of the best things my DPE told me on the instrument test was that if I'm trying to fly the 172 at a stable 90 knots, put in 10 degrees of flaps, no matter where I am on a flight. I trained with flaps at 90kt on final, but I did a lot of tooling around at 90-100kt en route (at least while training) and never dropped flaps. Turns out he was right, and I did feel like the plane really, really wanted to fly a nice stable 90kt with 10 degrees of flaps. Seems like good advice if you feel like the plane is starting to get ahead of you, especially while you're still trying to figure out what's what with instrument flying.
 
But... 90 KIAS is above the max flap speed on 172s older than the R model.

Vfe is 85 KIAS, and those models have no exceptions for the first notch.
 
MAKG1 said:
But... 90 KIAS is above the max flap speed on 172s older than the R model.

Vfe is 85 KIAS, and those models have no exceptions for the first notch.
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Probably true for the older models... Should have specified I was using an S model for the instrument, but I know my primary training on a 172P was placarded for 110kt 10deg flaps. They also had a 1979 N-model which I swear was also able to do 110kt for the first notch (out of 40deg total on that plane).
 
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YMMV: 10degrees of flaps at or below 100kts in a (my) 172N is fine. My technique is 10degrees of flaps in by the FAF, trim for 90kts, then you can stay there without monkeying around with anything else until you have the runway made at the DA/DH/MDA and then do what you like to land the plane. Objective is to have the plane's speed and descent rate stabilized and then just fly the approach.

You do whatever you're comfortable doing as long as you can fly the approach safely.
 
DutchessFlier said:
YMMV: 10degrees of flaps at or below 100kts in a (my) 172N is fine. My technique is 10degrees of flaps in by the FAF, trim for 90kts, then you can stay there without monkeying around with anything else until you have the runway made at the DA/DH/MDA and then do what you like to land the plane. Objective is to have the plane's speed and descent rate stabilized and then just fly the approach.

You do whatever you're comfortable doing as long as you can fly the approach safely.
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YMMV?

That's contrary to the POH. Max flap extension speed in a 172N is 85 KIAS. PERIOD.

Unless you have an STC allowing that, it's terrible advice. You can cause an unwitting pilot to fail a checkride that way. And damage the flap brackets. That would not be a good place -- or time -- for a fatigue failure. That it has always worked for you doesn't mean it will continue to do so.

I can't speak for a 172P.
 
MAKG1 said:
YMMV?

That's contrary to the POH. Max flap extension speed in a 172N is 85 KIAS. PERIOD.

Unless you have an STC allowing that, it's terrible advice. You can cause an unwitting pilot to fail a checkride that way. And damage the flap brackets. That would not be a good place -- or time -- for a fatigue failure. That it has always worked for you doesn't mean it will continue to do so.

I can't speak for a 172P.
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Nope

Flew the checkride exactly as I stated and somehow passed it.....

The POH for my 172N lists flap extension speed that coincides with the white arc (85 kts). However, the POH supplement that came with my 180 hp conversion specifies that the first 10 degrees of flap may be deployed at 110 kts and then the white arc governs the rest.

This is what I've been doing, and I find that deploying the first 10 degrees at or below 100 kts helps slow the airplane to the white arc speed without having to mess with the trim. If you look at the 172/180 POH you'll see the same 110 kt allowance for the first 10 degrees of flap. I elect to not deploy the flaps until 100kts or lower speed. I just make sure I'm there before the FAF.

Ted stated that he deploys flaps at 90kts, I'm not judging his aircraft's powerplant for an STC or model designation.

Funny, how fatigue failure and damage to the flap brackets you mention goes magically away with the 180 engine....PERIOD.

So lighten up friend.
 
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Regarding the flap issue, I am training in a C-172M. VsubFE is 85 kt IAS. The club 172M reads mph, not knots but I made my questions in knots to keep things uniform. My CFII had me flying the approach at 100 mph =~ 85 kt so flap extension is not an issue in my case. I have not been working on my IR in a year so I do not recall if my CFII had me put 10 degrees of flaps. I think not, though. I appreciate all the help here, just want you to know my specific situation in regards to flaps.
 
dell30rb said:
It does depend on the type of approach and what the controller does if you are receiving vectors to final.

You might consider establishing three profiles for each aircraft.

In Range - This is where you are on or near the approach. Receiving vectors to final or actually flying the approach. You've got some miles to cover. You can fly this however quickly you want. In a 172 or 182 I would recommend picking an economy cruise speed.

Approaching the FAF - You need to slow down to your final approach speed and configure the airplane for approach (GUMPS). For a 172 I would use 90 knots, no flaps. Can't comment on the 182. I would recommend timing this so you are at approach speed, with your GUMP check completed at least a minute before you are at the FAF.

FAF to Runway - You have the airplane configured, at approach speed and you intercept the glide slope (or are descending to MDA w/o GS) Pull the throttle back to your predetermined setting (1900 RPM might work on the 172) and simultaneously give the yoke a gentle nudge forward. You are now hopefully at the correct airspeed, pitch and right on the glide slope. All you have to do is track the localizer, glide slope and watch your altitude.

Runway in sight? Add flaps, trim, land. It is prudent to follow the glide slope down to the runway. At night or in low vis, its a must. If the airport has a VASI you can use that too.

If the runway is not in sight, you are already configured for a missed approach. Add power and fly the plane.
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I like this. I do something similar, although the speeds and configurations vary with the airplane.

My configuration from the FAF to the MAP may vary depending on the weather. If I expect to go visual "soon" because the ceilings are high, then I'll hold off on the flaps until I'm visual. On the other hand, if I'm expecting weather near minimums, then I'll try to set things up so that I make no changes on that segment. In a 172/182 that will mean 20 degrees of flaps usually, in a Diamond it may mean full flaps at the FAF.
 
In my 1967 172 I am at 90 MPH with flaps 10 when I intercept the ILS.
 
It depends on the approach. If the approach is 15 miles long I won't be doing 90kts the whole way. But once established, and before the FAF I put gear down and one notch of flaps (140kts in my airplane for both) and then do the approach at 90kts. It's hard to have a steadfast rule because every approach is a little different. So ultimately I end up at 90kts until either I break out and slow to 70 for landing, or until the missed point. Just where I do that depends on the approach.
 
Learn what your plane will do, but for the 172s I fly, I slow to under 110kts (about 1900 RPM) just prior to the FAF, drop 10 of flaps at the FAF, nudge the yoke to start my descent and this gives me about 90 kts and 4-500 fpm when trimmed out. I will add another notch of flaps at the MAP if I have time, otherwise 10 of flaps and follow it to the runway. No need to make major changes at the last second.
 
if vtf on a 172/182 throttle wide open as fast as possible and slow down at about 2 miles from faf. then fly the approach between vref and Vfe knots, whatever is necessary. Spams cans are pretty slow and easy to slow down even at their top speeds. You always have to be ready to expedite if you dont want to get kicked out of the sequence.
 
In either plane, you're going to find the whole exercise a lot easier if you slow the plane enough to extend 10 degrees of flap well before the FAF, and then fly the final segment within the white arc so when you break out, you can simply extend full flaps and land. Speeds for that will vary with model year.

No doubt someone will bring up the possibility of landing a 172 at Hartsfield in the middle of a stream of 737's doing 130 knots or more on final. Fine. If you have the chops to mix it with that crowd, you don't need my advice on how to do it. If you do need my advice here on that, then you're not ready to mix it with those folks in that arena, and you'd be a lot better off going into Peachtree where you can fly a nice, comfortable, stable approach inside the white arc on final with 10 degrees of flaps.
 
While I was in training, my instructor said 90k with 10 degrees of flaps in my 172. But after getting my ticket, I did some traveling with him in his 182 and I learned that approach speeds are variable to the conditions. If I'm going into a GA airport then I stick to 90k all the way till I break out. Several times when I was doing the approach into a commercial airport with jet aircraft, I will maintain 120k down the glide sloop to the outer marker. Approach control appreciates the faster speed when there is a 737 3 miles behind you.

One time I even maintained 120k all the way to the runway and then flew half way down the runway at 110k and then landed on the high speed exit. If the tower tells you to speed it up or they will send you back around you do what you have to do.
 
cirrusmx said:
if vtf on a 172/182 throttle wide open as fast as possible and slow down at about 2 miles from faf. then fly the approach between vref and Vfe knots, whatever is necessary. Spams cans are pretty slow and easy to slow down even at their top speeds. You always have to be ready to expedite if you dont want to get kicked out of the sequence.
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+1 Let er rip.

I had a DPE ask me what the hell I was doing when I slowed to 90 at the FAF in a 172. He said, are you trying to stall out everybody behind you?
 
Alexb2000 said:
I had a DPE ask me what the hell I was doing when I slowed to 90 at the FAF in a 172. He said, are you trying to stall out everybody behind you?
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DPE's have no business saying something like that on a practical test. That's the sort of thing which can get a DPE's designation pulled. There is no standard the IR PTS which is violated by flying a 172 at 90 knots on the final segment of an instrument approach, and DPE's are required to evaluate on the basis of those standards without such comments.
 
MAKG1 said:
That's contrary to the POH. Max flap extension speed in a 172N is 85 KIAS. PERIOD.
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I can't prove it, but the common consensus I've gained from 10 minutes of Googling this (so take it for what's it's worth)... is that 1979 and later 172N's are specifically allowed to drop 10 degrees at 110kt per the POH and a required placard.

Just as an example, here's one site which lists such a change occuring in 1979:

Presumably if anyone here has the actual POH from a 1979 172N it would concur.
 
Ron Levy said:
DPE's have no business saying something like that on a practical test. That's the sort of thing which can get a DPE's designation pulled.
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First of all, the DPE wouldn't lose his designation for making a comment during a checkride. He made an observation. Plus, under guidelines the DPE can make comments as a distraction.

Ron Levy said:
is no standard the IR PTS which is violated by flying a 172 at 90 knots on the final segment of an instrument approach, and DPE's are required to evaluate on the basis of those standards without such comments.
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Again, he made a comment based upon an operational consideration.

There's nothing saying he can't.
 
Ron Levy said:
DPE's have no business saying something like that on a practical test. That's the sort of thing which can get a DPE's designation pulled. There is no standard the IR PTS which is violated by flying a 172 at 90 knots on the final segment of an instrument approach, and DPE's are required to evaluate on the basis of those standards without such comments.
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I'm sure you're right, but I wasn't going to argue with the guy on a check ride. I told him that's what I was taught and he just scoffed. He was a retired commuter captain and talked about all the problems with bug smashers slowing waaaay down on the approach. So I did as the man asked, fire walled it to the FAF, chopped power, not perfect approaches, but he seemed pleased.

One of his parting comments was, fly them all fast, if you can fly one at 90 you should be able to do it at 140. Get used to it.:dunno:
 
Alexb2000 said:
I'm sure you're right, but I wasn't going to argue with the guy on a check ride. I told him that's what I was taught and he just scoffed. He was a retired commuter captain and talked about all the problems with bug smashers slowing waaaay down on the approach. So I did as the man asked, fire walled it to the FAF, chopped power, not perfect approaches, but he seemed pleased.

One of his parting comments was, fly them all fast, if you can fly one at 90 you should be able to do it at 140. Get used to it.:dunno:
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DPE's seem to have their little quirks. I was warned in advance that the DPE for my ATP wanted to see the pattern flown at 1,500' AGL like a "large" or turbine airplane as if the mighty Duchess is "large". :dunno:
 
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dukeblue219 said:
I can't prove it, but the common consensus I've gained from 10 minutes of Googling this (so take it for what's it's worth)... is that 1979 and later 172N's are specifically allowed to drop 10 degrees at 110kt per the POH and a required placard.

Just as an example, here's one site which lists such a change occuring in 1979:

Presumably if anyone here has the actual POH from a 1979 172N it would concur.
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I am looking at the ASA Cessna 172 guide. The '79 - '81 172N can drop 10 degrees at 110 kt, the earlier 172N years cannot.
 
RotorAndWing said:
First of all, the DPE wouldn't lose his designation for making a comment during a checkride. He made an observation. Plus, under guidelines the DPE can make comments as a distraction.



Again, he made a comment based upon an operational consideration.

There's nothing saying he can't.
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I'd like to see what happens if the applicant then tries to do what the DPE said and screws it up. I think that would be an appealable bust. In any event, FAA Order 8900.2 says "Practical tests not conducted in accordance with the applicable PTS, regulations, and safe operating practices may be invalid and may be grounds for termination of the examiner’s designation." There is nothing in the PTS or that Order which allows a DPE to make suggestions about procedures or techniques to the applicant when the applicant is already performing to standards, and I hardly think a DPE suggesting an applicant increase approach speed because "[you are] trying to stall out everybody behind you" constitutes a "realistic distraction."
 
Ron Levy said:
I'd like to see what happens if the applicant then tries to do what the DPE said and screws it up. I think that would be an appealable bust. In any event, FAA Order 8900.2 says "Practical tests not conducted in accordance with the applicable PTS, regulations, and safe operating practices may be invalid and may be grounds for termination of the examiner’s designation." There is nothing in the PTS or that Order which allows a DPE to make suggestions about procedures or techniques to the applicant when the applicant is already performing to standards, and I hardly think a DPE suggesting an applicant increase approach speed because "[you are] trying to stall out everybody behind you" constitutes a "realistic distraction."
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Once again you are "cherry picking" an order to make a point. Go read the whole thing.

Remember judgement is also being evaluated here. If the DPE made a suggestion or comment against the better judgement of the applicant, and the applicant does it who is at fault? On a certificate ride the applicant is required to demonstrate judgement. All the applicant has to do is say no and why not.

Before making absurd comments on what a DPE can and can't do go take an approved DPE course at the Academy. I have.
 
On an ILS approach is a perfect time for a distraction. As for the speed, approach freq asks, and of course you cash always say unable. I don't see the issue
 
RotorAndWing said:
Once again you are "cherry picking" an order to make a point. Go read the whole thing.

Remember judgement is also being evaluated here. If the DPE made a suggestion or comment against the better judgement of the applicant, and the applicant does it who is at fault? On a certificate ride the applicant is required to demonstrate judgement. All the applicant has to do is say no and why not.

Before making absurd comments on what a DPE can and can't do go take an approved DPE course at the Academy. I have.
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Just for the record:

I didn't take the DPE's comments as if he was trying to distract me, screw with me, or get me to do something dangerous. He was a real pilot trying to teach me how to fly in the real world. I listened to what he said, practiced fast approaches, and use them all the time.

Coming into a B when approach asks me what my best forward approach speed is and I say 140 to the marker, they always sound relieved I didn't say 90. So there must be some truth to his advice.
 
2100 rpm with 10 degree flaps sets me up for a nice 90kt descent at 500fpm YMMV in a 172N
 
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