Certified for LSA Trade

Graueradler

Graueradler

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Messages
2,021
Location
Russellville, AR
Display Name
Graueradler
Home Airfield
KRUE, Russellville, AR
Been working on a trade of a Cherokee for a Rans S6 Coyote II ES. It is a very interesting plane but it turns out that it has a bad case of the heavies and I don't see any easy way to fix it. It has gained 250 lbs. over the Rans specified empty weight. That only leaves about 400 lbs to the LSA 1320 limit. It is still a good experimental but not a good LSA. It is just hard to see where the weight is coming from.

It has a RAM Subaru 115 HP engine. That is only a little heavier than the usual 100HP Rotax. The reduction gear is an additional 20 or so. It has sturdy Grove main landing gear with tundra tires instead of the flimsier original gear. There is an added plastic fuel tank in the fuselage but, when empty, only a few pounds.

Other wise, there are a couple of pieces of junk electronics (CB radio & CD player - 2 or 3 pounds).

I don't see how taking out the extra fuel tank, switching the gear back to original, and getting rid of the junk electronics will get rid of enough weight

The only reason I'm trading is to get into LSA. I already have a good airplane. I'm about to reach a decision to scuttle the deal.
 
You might check to see if the historical W&B changes in the logs picked up an error somewhere along the line. Or just weigh the aircraft.

But generally, I find the LSA weight restrictions make it impossible for me to fly one (on paper) without severely limiting CFI and fuel loads. Here in Denver.

Especially up here at this altitude, the performance also suffers with the heavier higher-horsepower engines.

The pretty old Ercoupes and stuff that qualifies that isn't new, are never going to do well up here. 65 HP stuff is virtually an emergency before the takeoff roll commences.
Even a non-LSA Cessna 150/152 is a half-tanks or less aircraft up here in the summertime and you're still taking some risks if you fly mid-day.
 
The "case of the heavies" was identified by weighing. The historical W&B was a hopeless mess. If the physical plane is OK, the paper can be straightened out.
 
Either there is a lot of little stuff that added up or the published empty weight is somewhat optimistic (again).
 
Any suggestions for reference weights to check the scales. We've done comparisons to home bathroom scales and they look pretty good. I'd like to check around 200 & 400 lbs, The nose wheel weight in at about 200 and the mains were a little over 400.
 
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Might ask a DOT guy to weigh it with those portable flat scales used to weigh log trucks on the side of the road. i think they usually take them home the suburban here in Georgia. just thinking out loud... A few $ might just do it.
 
Graueradler said:
Been working on a trade of a Cherokee for a Rans S6 Coyote II ES. It is a very interesting plane but it turns out that it has a bad case of the heavies and I don't see any easy way to fix it. It has gained 250 lbs. over the Rans specified empty weight. That only leaves about 400 lbs to the LSA 1320 limit. It is still a good experimental but not a good LSA. It is just hard to see where the weight is coming from.

It has a RAM Subaru 115 HP engine. That is only a little heavier than the usual 100HP Rotax. The reduction gear is an additional 20 or so. It has sturdy Grove main landing gear with tundra tires instead of the flimsier original gear. There is an added plastic fuel tank in the fuselage but, when empty, only a few pounds.

Other wise, there are a couple of pieces of junk electronics (CB radio & CD player - 2 or 3 pounds).

I don't see how taking out the extra fuel tank, switching the gear back to original, and getting rid of the junk electronics will get rid of enough weight

The only reason I'm trading is to get into LSA. I already have a good airplane. I'm about to reach a decision to scuttle the deal.
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I thought that plane came spec'd with a 582 2 stroke? Also that gear adds weight I'm sure. If it doesn't look flimsy it's not well suited for LSA.
 
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Henning said:
I thought that plane came spec'd with a 582 2 stroke? Also that gear adds weight I'm sure. If it doesn't look flimsy it's not well suited for LSA.
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Rotax 912UL or 912ULS. RAM, which built the Subaru, says very small difference in weight between the Subaru and the 912 Rotax. I think it was about 4 lbs or maybe 8, don't remember for sure..
 
Graueradler said:
Rotax 912UL or 912ULS. RAM, which built the Subaru, says very small difference in weight between the Subaru and the 912 Rotax. I think it was about 4 lbs or maybe 8, don't remember for sure..
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Could have sworn when I was looking through those a while back they came with the 582.
 
Well, that trade fizzled. Paperwork on the CD from the FAA records showed that it had been certified at 1500 lbs gross weight so not possible to fly it as an LSA. Did get the scales checked and they are very accurate (within 1 lb in 500) but that is academic now. Now I'm checking out the Challenger that is in the hangar next to mine.
 
You see overweight homebuilts all the time unfortunately and the owner cannot understand why they don't come close to the factory performance numbers.
 
AEROBAT said:
You see overweight homebuilts all the time unfortunately and the owner cannot understand why they don't come close to the factory performance numbers.
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True. And sometimes the "factory" publishes numbers created by the marketing department...
 
Graueradler said:
Rotax 912UL or 912ULS. RAM, which built the Subaru, says very small difference in weight between the Subaru and the 912 Rotax. I think it was about 4 lbs or maybe 8, don't remember for sure..
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Subaru's run 200-220 pounds installed and the 912 around 150.
 
I could deal with the weight issue. Change the gear back to original, get rid of some junk electronic devices (I don't need a CB radio or CD player), Oh and remove the 35 lb tool box from the fuselage that everyone forgot was there, etc., etc. What I can't deal with is that it has been certified at more than 1320 lbs making it ineligible for LSA. I have a good airplane - a 1971 Cherokee. I don't need a different good airplane that still requires a medical to fly.
 
Check with your local FSDO, I read somewhere that you can go down in weight to meet the LSA requirement, you just cant go back up after you do it.
 
If they let you lower the gross weight that would be nice. And you know its safe to fly at 1500lbs. You're "overweight" for lsa but within limitations of aircraft.
 
Dean said:
Check with your local FSDO, I read somewhere that you can go down in weight to meet the LSA requirement, you just cant go back up after you do it.
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That would be contrary to the way the regulations are written which state "since certification" or some words like that.
 
paint often has lot to do with aircraft being overweight as well.
The factory airplane used for the performance numbers was probably in bare aluminum and perhaps only silver on the fabric (if it has it)

Brian
 
I know there is away to do it, it has been done to a few planes around here. I will ask and see how it was done.
 
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