Centurion (Thielert) Desiel Engine update

Dave Siciliano

Dave Siciliano

Final Approach
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Dave Siciliano
Some of us have wondered if these have reasonable application in the future for our planes. After some heated hanger talk this weekend concerning my P-Baron and other applications, I contacted the maunfacturer. Their response is below.

Best,

Dave
======================================================


Dear Mr. Siciliano,

thank you for your interest in the CENTURION aircraft engines product range.

Currently we do offer the CENTURION 135 PS engine and the CENTURION 4.0 (350 PS). Where as the CENTURION 135 PS can be fueled with either Diesel or Jet A1, the stronger CENTURION 4.0 is a pure Jet fuel engine. Today the CENTURION 135 PS holds an EASA and an FAA type-certificate. Our new CENTURION 4.0 is EASA type certificated and we are presently working on the FAA certificate.

As you may find out from our general brochure in more detail:

http://www.thielert.com/download/prospekt_retrofit_en.pdf (8MB)

the CENTURION 135 PS engine offers - in comparison to the original engines of the Cessna 172 and Piper 28 series - many advantages concerning the safety, comfort, performance and fuel efficiency.

Especially the enormous profitability of our engine is due to the significant lower fuel consumption with the cheaper Diesel or Jet A1 fuel. Already after one quarter of the engine's lifetime (TBR 2.400 hrs.) your investment into the conversion may pay off (depending on the actual fuel prices). With any additional flight hour you will even safe more money.

We do offer Retrofit-Kits for a variety of models from the Cessna 172 and Piper PA 28 series. Each Kit includes:

New engine mount, engine, reduction gear, turbocharger, starter, alternator, cooling system, prop governor, vacuum pump, single lever control selector, FADEC, engine instruments, wiring harness

and a new MT-variable pitch propeller.

The same benefits basically will be offered by the CENTURION 4.0 Jet Fuel engine:

- The engine will be single lever controlled through our FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Control).

- Max power of 350 HP(DIN 15°C) will be available for 5 minutes; propeller 2.300 RPM.

- Full HP will be available up to approximately 12.000 ft.

- Max continuous power will be appr. 330 PS(DIN 15°C); propeller 2.300 RPM.

- At 18.000 ft we estimate appr. continuous 290 PS(DIN 15°C).

- At FL 240 we estimate appr. continuous 250 PS(DIN 15°C).

- Certified service ceiling is FL 250.

- Fuel consumption at sea level at full power (350 HP DIN 15°C) will be roughly 20,1 gallons/hour and

-11,0 gallons/hour at 60% rated power (210 HP DIN 15°C) is estimated for the BEP (Best Economy Point).

- For the cabin pressurization a separate compressor, driven by our accessory gear, will be available.

- We currently estimate the weight of the CENTURION 4.0 complete & dry including the gearbox, starter, alternator, harness and FADEC, depending on the installation, at 620 lbs.

As mentioned, until today Thielert Aircraft Engines has developed Retrofit-Kits for the Cessna 172 and PA 28 series with our smaller CENTURION 135 PS engine.

For your Beech Baron B-55 the CENTURION 4.0 engine is recommended but we do not have a Kit / STC for the Beech Baron series available right now and nobody else has done it so far.

To implement the engine are some major changes necessary around the engine area. It is necessary to install a new engine mount, FADEC, engine instruments, new wiring and so on.

As our engineering capacity is highly involved in some key projects, we will not be able to offer such an STC or installation kit in the near future. Development of installations for production airplanes will be arranged by airplane OEMs themselves or an approved development centers with a proven record on STC development.

Our engines show a different complexity and have a high sophisticated electrical system, which requires an installation according to regulations and procedures as you find in certified aircraft. Thus, we cannot offer the CENTURION engines for individual experimental installations.

Let me suggest, that you contact Beechcraft in Wichita, KS, USA directly in order to see whether they plan to develop such an installation for the Beech Baron B-55 series.

For the Beech Duke series, the company of:



Gomolzig Flugzeug- und Maschinenbau GmbH



Mr. Peter Gomolzig



Eisenwerkstraße 9

58332 Schwelm/Germany



fon: +49 (0)2336/4903-30

fax: +49 (0)2336/4903-39



Email: <mailto:info@gomolzig.de> info@gomolzig.de



has been instrumental in obtaining the STC. He will be more than happy to update you on the progress. Right now they have done their first successful flights with our CENTURION 4.0 engine in a retrofitted Beech Duke B60.

If you do have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely



Wolfgang Biereth

--------------------------------------------------
Thielert Aircraft Engines GmbH
Platanenstrasse 14
D-09350 Lichtenstein
http://www.thielert.com
--------------------------------------------------
Wolfgang Biereth
TAE Sales
Tel.: +49(0)37204-696-57
Fax.: +49(0)37204-696-55
Mobil: +49(0)172-3611 652
E-Mail: Wolfgang_Biereth@thielert.com
 
A really small nitpick:

Diesel. :yes: Named after my fellow countryman Rudolf Diesel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Diesel

Not Deisel. Or Desiel. :no:

And the application Diesel engines in airplanes is fantastic, I am glad that 2 (actually 3) Diesel engine manufacturers are working on it.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Let me suggest, that you contact Beechcraft in Wichita, KS, USA directly in order to see whether they plan to develop such an installation for the Beech Baron B-55 series.

Mr. Peter Gomolzig
Click to expand...
Dave,
I've always wanted to fly a P-55 Baron. Where'd you find yours? :rofl:
 
diesel, oil burner, clatterin' cummins, rattlin' ram ... I love diesels... grew up driving diesels, running diesel heavy equipment, currently driving a Cummins ... I love diesels! :)
 
tomcat said:
A really small nitpick:

Diesel. :yes: Named after my fellow countryman Rudolf Diesel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Diesel

Not Deisel. Or Desiel. :no:

And the application Diesel engines in airplanes is fantastic, I am glad that 2 (actually 3) Diesel engine manufacturers are working on it.
Click to expand...

Leave it to me to misspell something this simple; sorry.

Dave
 
I can't find direct data on the TSIO520WBs I have v. their engines. They do say theirs are 65 pounds lighter than the 541 Duke engines. Here's the link
http://www.centurion-engines.com/.

I do understand they have some parts that are mandatory to replace in as little as 300 hours and cannot be rebuilt at TBO, so, lots of issues to consider besides what the marketing department is hyping.

As you know, over in Europe, it was much more difficult to find 100LL and a lot of the training aircraft over their went to jet A. Not as much need right here, right now, but there are some folks that are keeping their options open. Cirrus got an STC for the turbo rather than making if factory. One line of thought is keeping options open for a diesel engine in the future.

Best,

Dave
 
I bet BDS is working on an STC for Bo's and Barons, and RAM, for cabin Cessnas.

I heard a DA42 fly overhead yesterday (they fly over my house on approach for 33 at ADS when ADS is landing ... ummm... on 33). It is certainly quieter than normal aero engines, more tip noise than exhaust from what I could hear.
 
More info:

Best,

Dave

The Thielert has a TBR (time between REPLACEMENT)( currently 1000hrs with a projected 2400hr TBR at a later date) not a TBO.

NOTE 8:​
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]
Overhaul of the core engine is not permitted. See Overhaul Manual for the accessory/parts permitted for overhaul.​
[/FONT]

NOTE 6:​
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]
The TAE 125-01 and TAE125-02 engine are Life-Limited. Whole engine must be removed from service in accordance with the Airworthiness Limitations Section, Chapter 5 of the Maintenance manual.​
[/FONT]

Here is an interesting note :
NOTE 14:​
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]
There are no provisions for customer/aircraft furnished equipment. All accessories are part of the engine type design.​
[/FONT]
So no STBY alternators, AC compressors ect ect.



The Warranty is AWESOME! :

"The base engine has a 2,400 hours/12 years pro rata service package which ever occurs first. During this timeframe the customer pays only quotal for the engine use he got. In the unlikely case that an engine breaks at 1,000 hours e.g. the customer has to pay only for 1,000/2,400 to get a new factory exchange engine. There are no overhauled engines available, only factory exchange engines. "

For all the folks interested in prop strikes:

"In case of prop strike, a costly shock-loading inspection of the engine is not necessary. Only the propeller needs a repair and the gearbox has to be inspected. The CENTURION 1.7 has a combined system of torsional vibration damper and a safety clutch. It decouples the propeller from the core engine"
 
Dave Siciliano said:
For all the folks interested in prop strikes:

"In case of prop strike, a costly shock-loading inspection of the engine is not necessary. Only the propeller needs a repair and the gearbox has to be inspected. The CENTURION 1.7 has a combined system of torsional vibration damper and a safety clutch. It decouples the propeller from the core engine"
Click to expand...

any idea if they are going to put them on 182RGs? :rofl:
 
Ron Levy said:
How does 620 lb a side compare to the weight of the current engines in your plane?
Click to expand...

Joe posted this on the red board. Sounds like about 60 pounds more but not an exact comparison.

Best,

Dave
=======================================================

The TSIO-520-WB engines have a 520 cubic inch displacement achieved by using a cylinder design with a 5.25 inch diameter bore and a 4.00 inch stroke. The engine enclosure is of the Permold series crankcase design. The dry weight of the engine is 416.10 lbs. without accessories. The average weight of the engine with installed accessories is approximately 559 lbs."

http://www.tcmlink.com/EngSpecSheetDocs/TSIO520WB.pdf

Joe
 
tonycondon said:
any idea if they are going to put them on 182RGs? :rofl:
Click to expand...
SMA has a 305cuin 4cyl opposed aircooled diesel rated at 230hp (for the first 5 min 200hp cont.) and has an STC for 182's (not sure of the RG)
http://www.smaengines.com/

Centurion announced at Oshkosh that they are working on a 3.2L 6cyl diesel rated at 230HP also (no further details yet)

Deltahawk is currently selling 160hp and 200hp versions of their engine (experimental only FAA certification due this year). This engine is a really smooth running 2 stroke. The next version is going to be an 8cyl rated at 320hp, 360hp and 400hp. 6 cyl engine have been talked about
http://www.deltahawkengines.com/
 
120 lb extra is a lot. Yeah, you probably save 20 gallons of fuel, but I'd be interested to see what it does to cg since the engines are pretty far forward.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Currently we do offer the CENTURION 135 PS engine and the CENTURION 4.0 (350 PS). Where as the CENTURION 135 PS can be fueled with either Diesel or Jet A1, the stronger CENTURION 4.0 is a pure Jet fuel engine.
Click to expand...

Note that even the 135 is Jet-A only in the US. It's auto diesel certified in Europe, but will not be diesel certified in the US. There's something about the diesel here that it won't handle.
 
Yea, there are lots of issues. A group is in the process of getting the STC for the Duke. Should be able to see how that does.

A guy that is much more technically oriented than me looked into it and said the efficiency of the engines isn't that much better than the gasoline ones. There is the scheduled replacement of components--not things like oil filters.

Here are some of Nathan's thoughts from the Beechnet.
===============================================
At it's best economy, the engine has a BSFC of .35 lbs/hp-hr. I think an IO-550 has something like .38 lbs/hp-hr at best BSFC. Not sure about the TSIO-520s in your bird, I imagine they are somewhat worse because of the lower compression ratio. I'd be more inclined to look into a TNIO-550 (only 300 hp, I guess) or TSIO-550 (less efficient but 350 hp). If TATurbo could make a TNIO-550 run a bit higher boost and get 325 hp--which I don't think is too hard--then that would be a great engine for any Baron.

The efficiency numbers look good in terms of gallons/hour because Jet-A weighs quite a bit more than 100LL. In pounds/hour the difference is much less. However, one nice thing (I guess) is that efficiency is only slightly worse at full power (350 hp), no need to run well ROP to keep temps low apparently. That means a long climb would result in quite a fuel savings.
Not as much of an issue if you climb LOP in your plane now, though.

Nathan
 
I believe it probably has to do with the sulfur content in the auto diesel in the US. Europe has had the ultra low sulfur fuel for years, while it is being phased in in the us (Kent you ought to know about that). I know that VW was delaying bringing over their more advanced diesel engines to the US because of this.

Peter
 
vontresc said:
I believe it probably has to do with the sulfur content in the auto diesel in the US. Europe has had the ultra low sulfur fuel for years, while it is being phased in in the us (Kent you ought to know about that).
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was wondering as I posted that if it could be certified for 2007 diesel here.
 
would there be any issues with gelling at higher altitudes with road diesel?
 
tonycondon said:
would there be any issues with gelling at higher altitudes with road diesel?
Click to expand...

Not so much high altitude as low temperature. Diesel will gel at low temps unless it's treated. If you buy diesel in the winter in colder climates it's pre-treated. If you buy diesel down south and then take it where it's cold, that could be bad news.

I bet there were a bunch of stranded trucks down in TX in the last couple of weeks...

They do make this stuff called Howes Lubricator Diesel Treat that can be added to untreated fuel to prevent gelling.

If you do gel up, that's bad news. Engine will eventually quit and you can kiss your fuel filters goodbye. However, this usually doesn't happen while the engine is running unless it's REALLY cold, as the fuel returned from the injectors helps keep the fuel in the tank warm. It could be a problem in very cold temps on an airplane though, as it would seem that there's more surface area per volume in a wing tank than there would be in a cylindrical truck tank.
 
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