Center vs TRACON

Velocity173

Velocity173

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Velocity173
Another good vid from the ATC memes folks. While funny, it's an actual debate that occurs between the two facilities. The opposite occurs as well; late handoff sometimes in your airspace.

 
Quite possibly the most interesting, entertaining, educational, and eye opening recordings I have ever heard.

Thanks for sharing.
 
Now I understand where all the shouting in the background on ATC frequencies is coming from :)
 
Kritchlow said:
Really??? Proof needed.
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That that actually happens? Or that they dramatized it? You'll just have to take their word for it, and mine and Velocities that it happens. Bitchin about the other facilities is a 'pastime.' Not only Center vs Approach, but between any two facilities. They were a little over the top, but funny as hell. The first time I heard one it took me a minute to catch that it was "theater."
 
luvflyin said:
That that actually happens? Or that they dramatized it? You'll just have to take their word for it, and mine and Velocities that it happens. Bitchin about the other facilities is a 'pastime.' Not only Center vs Approach, but between any two facilities. They were a little over the top, but funny as hell. The first time I heard one it took me a minute to catch that it was "theater."
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Both... I thought it was candid. If not it was done VERY well.
So, which is it???
 
luvflyin said:
They obviosly get actual recordings of pilot transmissions and then splice in their "act."
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So was this a reanactment ??

Perhaps I'm naive, but I thought it was actual blow by blow...
 
I'm pretty sure it was actual pilot responses spliced into the recording they did...otherwise how would they switch back between Tracon and center? Sure it was dramatized for effect..but only a little bit. This is one of those things controllers will "get" and many of us will be left saying "huh"?

Related note: I love how a controller on position can carry a conversation with the person next to him in the cab or radar room about something totally unrelated while working traffic and not miss a beat.
 
Always wondered if atc had any sterile-cockpit type rules. (I know they were discussing bidnez, but an argument could be made such chat we heard was irrelevant banter - if such chat actually happens)
If this really happens as depicted....does anyone think it is concerning that there appears to be a lack of teamwork - not criticizing: just wonder if staff could be more focused of management would take care of such issues which result in discord. (fully cognizant that I know nothing of how atc works in their day to day work)
 
Don't know of any rules, but after the helicopter-piper collision over the Hudson the NTSB put some contributing factors to the discussion of the barbecued cat which lead to a recommendation to "Brief all air traffic controllers and supervisors on the air traffic control (ATC) performance deficiencies evident in the circumstances of this accident and emphasize the requirement to be attentive and conscientious when performing ATC duties." The NTSB board in whole fell short of actually recommending a sterile-cockpit rule, though board member Hart filed a dissenting opinion that's attached to the report.


One of the primary reasons for our probable cause statement is to identify a problem that we can recommend measures to resolve in order to prevent the problem from happening again. Thus, I concur with the probable cause to the extent that it is based upon the controller's inadequate attention to his duties because he was on the phone when he should have been doing his job. This is a problem for which there is a very direct remedy -- prohibiting controllers from inappropriately using the phone while on duty. ​

NATCA screamed bloody murder all during the investigation on any recommendation that ATC actually change their procedures.
 
Kritchlow said:
So was this a reanactment ??

Perhaps I'm naive, but I thought it was actual blow by blow...
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I think like Luv said, pretty sure most of their stuff is a parody. They get actual pilot recordings and splice their voices into it. They're definitely either current or former controllers though.

Yes it dramatized but controllers can relate to the situation because it's happened on a smaller scale to them. "Why's center flashing this guy 20 miles from my border still out of 17,000???" :D Then on the flip side, you're busy on departure so you flash some guy at them out of 6,000 and they ignore the flash until the last minute. Usually all of this happens when you're busy. You're doing handoffs and point outs super early so you don't forget and violate a boundary or delay a pilot's climb / descent. Like in the recording, they have LOAs with each facility that specify what altitude an aircraft will be at and what the receiving controller can do with the aircraft after handoff.

None of this gets to be to the point of being dissfunctional like in the vid. Besides one particular FACSFAC, we always had a great relationship with our bordering facilities.
 
Brad Z said:
Related note: I love how a controller on position can carry a conversation with the person next to him in the cab or radar room about something totally unrelated while working traffic and not miss a beat.
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Haven't seen it myself but have been told that "in the age of Morse", and experienced radioman could pass dits and dahs from his headset through his brain and fingertips to a typewriter while carrying on an unrelated conversation.
 
Graueradler said:
Haven't seen it myself but have been told that "in the age of Morse", and experienced radioman could pass dits and dahs from his headset through his brain and fingertips to a typewriter while carrying on an unrelated conversation.
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Yep. My dad had that capability in his younger days. I never actually saw him do it, but I've sat by while he copied a 40 wpm cw signal buried in a heavy torrent of noise.
 
Graueradler said:
Haven't seen it myself but have been told that "in the age of Morse", and experienced radioman could pass dits and dahs from his headset through his brain and fingertips to a typewriter while carrying on an unrelated conversation.
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I have no problem doing this up to a certain speed and then it takes more of my conscious attention. I suspect my former roommate could easily do it as fast as any telegrapher could send by hand. He worked at a lot more CW that I did.
 
flyingron said:
Don't know of any rules, but after the helicopter-piper collision over the Hudson the NTSB put some contributing factors to the discussion of the barbecued cat which lead to a recommendation to "Brief all air traffic controllers and supervisors on the air traffic control (ATC) performance deficiencies evident in the circumstances of this accident and emphasize the requirement to be attentive and conscientious when performing ATC duties." The NTSB board in whole fell short of actually recommending a sterile-cockpit rule, though board member Hart filed a dissenting opinion that's attached to the report.
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I recently discovered that the tower controller involved in that accident is now a supervisor here at ORF.
 
Graueradler said:
Haven't seen it myself but have been told that "in the age of Morse", and experienced radioman could pass dits and dahs from his headset through his brain and fingertips to a typewriter while carrying on an unrelated conversation.
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That's amazing. I'm impressed by that. Can't resist a punchline though. But can he do it while popping corn under a tin roof during a hail storm?
 
Graueradler said:
Haven't seen it myself but have been told that "in the age of Morse", and experienced radioman could pass dits and dahs from his headset through his brain and fingertips to a typewriter while carrying on an unrelated conversation.
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It's true. I've seen it. Both to pencil and paper and to typewriter. Can't do it myself, though.

Most good CW ops can multitask a bit for a "standard" contact and carry on a halting conversation in voice while copying.

Since it eventually becomes like listening to another language and not ever "dits and dahs" (that's the absolute worst possible way to learn CW!) you're essentially listening to two people talk at the same time, but you know part of what one or both of them is going to say and can pick out key words from the morse while listening to your wife ask you what you want for dinner.

Never learn morse as dits and dahs. Learn it as letters being complete sounds. Later speed up to hearing whole words.

The best way to do this is the "Farnsworth" method. Learn characters at 20 WPM or so, and leave large gaps between characters. Later you just close the gaps.

Aviation morse identifiers are done the unholy slow way, and it makes a CW op think it's someone talking on a tape played back waaaaaaaaaaay tooooooooooo slllllloooooooowwwww.
 
Yes, even 20WPM CW is way slower than people speak. Most people can type faster than that as well.
 
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