CDF Aircraft (Interesting)

LJS1993

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LJ Savala
Hey guys today while shopping at my local Lowes, which happens to be right next to Hemet-Ryan Airfield (KHMT), I saw a twin CDF aircraft (California Department of Forestry) do something that was very cool to me. The twin seemed to be coming in for a landing, gear was down, but instead just flew right over the airfield, made a very steep bank to the left, went around very quickly, then landed. What impressed me was how quick the pilot did this maneuver. I'm sure it's standard practice for you guys but to me it was very impressive. What exactly went on? Was he bleeding off speed?
 
Overhead break ??:dunno:;)...

Awww. Never mind, the plane was NOT an RV..:no::nonod:
 
Sounded like he just flew a low pattern, not unusual with work/utility pilots who work low level. When you get used to maneuvering at 5'-100', climbing to pattern altitude just to come down and land doesn't seem to make a bunch of sense.
 
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Sounded like he just flew a low pattern, not unusual with work/utility pilots who work low level. When you get used to maneuvering at 5'-100', climbing to pattern altitude just to come down and land doesn't seem to make a bunch of sense.

That must have been it because all of his actions were really tight. I've seen other guys fly the pattern around this airport and not one has done it like that guy.
 
That must have been it because all of his actions were really tight. I've seen other guys fly the pattern around this airport and not one has done it like that guy.

After you work Ag and pipeline for a few years you get so used to it you don't worry about it anymore. It's actually easier to judge everything the closer to the ground you are.
 
Any idea whether it was a Bronco or S-2?


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Just a guess here but I'd assume that CDF planes often land at unimproved strips or perhaps just fields and dirt roads. Perhaps the pilot was practicing a low fly over for field observation ( to determine condition of the field)
 
Just a guess here but I'd assume that CDF planes often land at unimproved strips or perhaps just fields and dirt roads. Perhaps the pilot was practicing a low fly over for field observation ( to determine condition of the field)

Sounded to me like he came in on a low downwind spun it around and landed.
 
Just a guess here but I'd assume that CDF planes often land at unimproved strips or perhaps just fields and dirt roads. Perhaps the pilot was practicing a low fly over for field observation ( to determine condition of the field)
Guess again.
 
Just a guess here but I'd assume that CDF planes often land at unimproved strips or perhaps just fields and dirt roads. Perhaps the pilot was practicing a low fly over for field observation ( to determine condition of the field)

Actually these planes land at paved airports only. If they are actually in firefighting mode there will be a team to support the plane when it lands. They may need to refuel, reload water, reload a fire retardant that gets dumped with the water and possibly change crews. It is very coordinated.

When we get air tankers here for fires they only come out of Jacksonville which is approx 80 miles away. It is actually neat to watch as there is a spotter plane then the tanker follows and wherever the lead flies, the tanker is comes in about a minute later.

Click on the pictures. They are from a brush fire in our County last year.

Spotter plane:
IMG_2970.JPG

Air Tanker:
IMG_2959.JPG

What the area looks like a day after a water drop.
IMG_2982.JPG
 
Cal Fire planes operate from their Air Attack bases, all of which have long paved runways. It's really cool to see how quickly they can refill and head back out.

And it's it really not cool to be in a location that you're within a few wingspans when they're dropping retardant on a fire. Only one time in my career have I been more scared.
 
Cal Fire planes operate from their Air Attack bases, all of which have long paved runways. It's really cool to see how quickly they can refill and head back out.

And it's it really not cool to be in a location that you're within a few wingspans when they're dropping retardant on a fire. Only one time in my career have I been more scared.

I only did it with recip Droms in Aus, but I can tell being in the plane in that moment isn't exactly a calming situation either lol. Low and in the smoke surrounded by fire in a Polish POS isn't exactly a Sunday stroll.;)
 
Sounds kind of like he was doing an overhead break.

Not sure if it was one of the same planes, but on Friday afternoon I watched a CDF OV-10 followed by 2 S-2 Trackers (turbo prop conversions) takeoff from Ramona. The Bronco turned a sharp left x-wind and then onto the downwind at around 200' AGL. He wasn't more than 500' on the downwind (cloud bases were 800-1000 AGL).

I suspect they like flying low because they can.
 
And it's it really not cool to be in a location that you're within a few wingspans when they're dropping retardant on a fire. Only one time in my career have I been more scared.

The same day I took those photos I was riding around with one Fire Lieutenants taking pictures and we were in an area that still had some smoldering brush when we heard the spotter plane was inbound. Sure enough her it comes over the tree line coming right over us. Next radio call was the spotter plane calling off the drop and doing a go-around because of "a couple idiots in the path." We got the hell out of out there before anyone found out who the idiots were.:yikes:
 
Sounds kind of like he was doing an overhead break.

Not sure if it was one of the same planes, but on Friday afternoon I watched a CDF OV-10 followed by 2 S-2 Trackers (turbo prop conversions) takeoff from Ramona. The Bronco turned a sharp left x-wind and then onto the downwind at around 200' AGL. He wasn't more than 500' on the downwind (cloud bases were 800-1000 AGL).

I suspect they like flying low because they can.

Those guys have to be skilled in major way.
 
Those guys have to be skilled in major way.


Lol, why would you think that? It requires not one iota more skill than flying around at altitude. You know what makes Ag flying dangerous? Boredom! Back and forth and back and forth... The second time I woke up from a daydream in the middle of a field with wires at each end already having sprayed half of it without even thing about it, I pretty much quit, I knew it would kill me eventually and since "third times a charm" I decided to walk away for a while. In the time since everybody I trained with is now dead including the instructor and his son, so I haven't really sought to return.
 
Generally patterns in firefighting aircraft are flown at the same traffic pattern altitude as everyone else. CDF has their own internal policies, but USFS and BLM both require adherence to local traffic pattern altitudes and procedures. Horsing around in the pattern isn't a good idea. A mid-air collision between a USFS Baron and a DC-4 at Ramona years ago was in part the result of at least one of the two aircraft (the Baron) still talking to the fire and not keeping his head in the game when it came to flying the traffic pattern.

Whereas much of the flight operation for firefighting aircraft is well below 200 when in the fireground, operating close to the surface isn't a big deal; it's done all the time. Just not usually at the airport. Departures when loaded, of course, often don't allow much excess performance, and one may remain low for a long time, struggling for altitude all the way to the fire.

I only did it with recip Droms in Aus, but I can tell being in the plane in that moment isn't exactly a calming situation either lol. Low and in the smoke surrounded by fire in a Polish POS isn't exactly a Sunday stroll.

I flew Dromaders for seven years doing SEAT work on fires, mostly with Garret and Pratt conversions. I had one engine failure in the Garrett conversion while working a fire and ended up making a forced landing during the fire. It made for a really long day, but didn't work out too badly.

I flew air attack for several years in various platforms, and flew several different heavy tankers, too. I did six years of ground firefighting, as well. I also flew Air Tractor 802's on fires, as well as 502's.

I liked the Dromaders; I got really comfortable in them, but the 802 was a much better machine for firefighting. Much more power, more capable, although not as forgiving a wing, and a lot less forgiving to land.

Cal Fire planes operate from their Air Attack bases, all of which have long paved runways. It's really cool to see how quickly they can refill and head back out.

Some bases have long runways. Hemet doesn't. Neither did Ramona. We often used all the runway, plus some.

When we get air tankers here for fires they only come out of Jacksonville which is approx 80 miles away. It is actually neat to watch as there is a spotter plane then the tanker follows and wherever the lead flies, the tanker is comes in about a minute later.

When operating in Florida, I dropped at NAS Jax, but operated out of Talahassee, Brooksville, Punta Gorda, Ocala, and Lake City. In the late 90's we had a lot of activity down there in Brevard and Voluisia counties.

Sometimes in the tanker we work off the lead, and sometimes the lead follows, depending on what's desired. Usually the tanker stays close to the lead, unless the lead is doing a show-me run to illustrate the line or the start and stop points. Sometimes it's more beneficial to have the lead above and behind, to call the drop. The P3's (such as T-22, in your picture) are gone. AeroUnion shut her doors.

Just a guess here but I'd assume that CDF planes often land at unimproved strips or perhaps just fields and dirt roads.

While I've done that many times in ag aircraft and SEATs, the CDF does not. There's no need.

You know what makes Ag flying dangerous? Boredom!

There's a certain amount of truth to that. Ag flying isn't dangerous until someone makes it so; the most dangerous part of ag flying is the pilot.

I was working one morning behind someone who went through a quad set of powerlines. We always flew with enough up-trim in that we had to hold the stick forward; a moment of inattention and the airplane would climb. The man ahead of me, a 15,000 hour ag pilot, dozed off, and was awakened by the sound of hitting those power lines. It tore off his wingtips, smashed his leading edges, shattered his canopy, cut through his propeller, pulled the spray booms off the wings, and messed the airplane up a little. When I asked him later what happened, he simply said "I fell asleep." Going back and forth in a field in the calm early morning hours, little breeze, atrazine and 2,4-D covering the windscreen until one can just rub a small spot on the lower left corner, enough to see forward, the rhythmic back-and forth with 30 seconds of straight and level each direction is like rocking a baby to sleep. It's all work, but those 30 seconds of relaxation, the straight and level between the turns, were enough.

It requires not one iota more skill than flying around at altitude.

Having done both a LOT, I'd tend to disagree with you. What it does require are specialized skills and attention to detail. An instrument approach requires thinking a long way ahead, where ag work is very much living in the moment. You concentrate on that next powerline until you're past it and then you throw it away; divorce the thought and concentrate on the ground right past the powerline. You pull and level and then push, hold 5', and now the ground isn't important but the standpipe or circle irrigation ahead is. It's the most important thing in the world, more important than family, church, or taxes, because if you gauge wrong, you won't go to church, see your family, or dodge taxes ever again. Get past that standpipe, and now it's the powerlines ahead; everything else is forgotten. It's that living in the moment, abandoning everything that just went behind and focusing on what's right in front, that makes it different.

Another aspect is fully using the performance envelope of the aircraft. With turns at the end of a field done at 75' to 150', the turn is often tight enough to feel the airplane buffet, and it's got to be done by feel. I used to do a lot of formation work in fields when I was a teenager; we did formation spraying largely to save on flags (dropped by an "automatic flagman" on the wing). In the turns, one worked the airplane tight in the turn, and had to deal with the wingtip vortices of the airplane ahead. The airplane would shudder and buffet, and we'd work it in and out of the buffet, with it trying to roll this way or that. It's very much a feel and true seat-of-the-pants kind of flying...until one gets into the smoke on a fire, and then it's a combination of all that, and instrument work, plus the particulars of working the terrain and escapes in the terrain, as well as doing precision application on the fire.

I've got lots of dead friends who would disagree that it doesn't require a special skillset to be doing that kind of work. It does. Even with that, and with regular practice, and a lot of experience, the job and the operation can still bite, and it often does.
 
Doug, you were probably here in '98 when we had severe fires throughout the State. We lost 70 homes in Flagler County alone. (where I work)
 
I was there.

I was operating out of Tallahassee, Lake City, Ocala, Punta Gorda, and Brooksville.

We were busy.

I believe I was there in 99, too.
 
Hey guys today while shopping at my local Lowes, which happens to be right next to Hemet-Ryan Airfield (KHMT), I saw a twin CDF aircraft (California Department of Forestry) do something that was very cool to me. The twin seemed to be coming in for a landing, gear was down, but instead just flew right over the airfield, made a very steep bank to the left, went around very quickly, then landed. What impressed me was how quick the pilot did this maneuver. I'm sure it's standard practice for you guys but to me it was very impressive. What exactly went on? Was he bleeding off speed?

Someone already gave the answer: it was a left over-head break. It is usually flown as an upwind with a sharp banking left turn to downwind, base and final in a continuous left turn for the numbers. It is usually a military maneuver and done by guys and gals flying warbirds at airshows. They come in, in formation on the upwind and one by one each peals off to the left (if its left traffic) and flys that maneuver for spacing and they land one behind the other rapidly.

Kobra
 
I think Patty Wagstaff is flying an S-2 for Cal Fire. Another one of their pilots is legendary F-14 pilot Joe "Hoser" Satrapa.

Cal Fire's fixed wing pilots actually work for Dyncorp on contract. Their helo pilots are firefighters.
 
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