Causes of gear ups

Re: Causes if gear ups

Fearless Tower said:
You have it backwards. It isn't the straight-in that is the danger. It is the people who insist on a set routine as the tripping point like gear down on the downwind every time who then go to a towered airport and are given something that disrupts their routine like an extended downwind or straight in.
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Then never go to a towered airport, duh! :D

Oh, and DUH is not a towered airport, either :rofl:
 
Re: Causes if gear ups

EdFred said:
Oh, and DUH is not a towered airport, either :rofl:
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Ahh, Toledo suburban. Not on my list of places to land right now, a bit short with big trees on either end. Used to go there all the time to visit mama Steingar.
 
Re: Causes if gear ups

coloradobluesky said:
straight in landings. Why? Pilots tend to forget to do the CGUMP C (check the gear), G (gear down), U (undercarriage check,) M (main gear down), P (Put the gear down). They just fly it on in. Something about that downwind a beam the numbers, pull the power and land stuff....

What saves you? Always a last minute check on short final....
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Yes, no matter what procedure you use, you MUST check on final. I physically briefly touch the gear lever while looking at the three green lights and say "gear is down" three to five times on final. It is an ingrained part of my procedure. Maybe a little OCD... I just never want to gear up so I'm okay with that :D
 
Re: Causes if gear ups

steingar said:
Ahh, Toledo suburban. Not on my list of places to land right now, a bit short with big trees on either end. Used to go there all the time to visit mama Steingar.
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3500 feet is "a bit short"? That's on 9, more like 3800 on 27...
 
Re: Causes if gear ups

azure said:
3500 feet is "a bit short"? That's on 9, more like 3800 on 27...
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I recall it as being about 1000 feet shorter than that, but that could just be faulty memory. I just recall it looking awfully short after clearing those damn trees.

Then again, I can't envisage a reason to visit Toledo Suburban. It isn't particularly close to anything I want to visit.

Funny story (I hope). Lots of you guys have met my buddy China. He used to brag loudly about having visited every state but Michigan. One day we flew up to DUH to visit some friends. I told him (truthfully) he was landing at Toledo Suburban. He had to do a go around too, came in a bit too hot. Anyhow, after we landed I had the distinct pleasure of welcoming him to Lambertville Michigan.
 
Re: Causes if gear ups

steingar said:
I recall it as being about 1000 feet shorter than that, but that could just be faulty memory. I just recall it looking awfully short after clearing those damn trees.
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It just looks short I guess. It's actually 4800 feet total rwy length, with a 1300 foot displaced threshold on 9, 1000 on 27.

You'll know you've mastered the M20C when you can take it to places like 89D and 3DA. (Thanks to trees, 3DA actually feels a bit short in the Branded Bird, but with a well planned-out approach, it's actually fairly easy.)
 
Re: Causes if gear ups

steingar said:
Funny story (I hope). Lots of you guys have met my buddy China. He used to brag loudly about having visited every state but Michigan. One day we flew up to DUH to visit some friends. I told him (truthfully) he was landing at Toledo Suburban. He had to do a go around too, came in a bit too hot. Anyhow, after we landed I had the distinct pleasure of welcoming him to Lambertville Michigan.
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Even funnier: I remember being introduced to China along with several others of your clan, Michael. But I must have gotten the names attached to the wrong faces, because I was under the impression that China was a she.

<ducks and runs>
 
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I check multiple times as well, but that begs a question:

Have any of you ever had a gear SAFE indication that became a gear UNsafe indication, on the same landing attempt, without any interaction from you (you didn't touch the gear handle, etc.)? If so, what caused it?
 
Re: Causes if gear ups

azure said:
Even funnier: I remember being introduced to China along with several others of your clan, Michael. But I must have gotten the names attached to the wrong faces, because I was under the impression that China was a she.

<ducks and runs>
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He's a big guy, and I hope he joins me as an airplane partner. He's a good stick and rudder pilot. I am better at navigation and systems.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I check multiple times as well, but that begs a question:

Have any of you ever had a gear SAFE indication that became a gear UNsafe indication, on the same landing attempt, without any interaction from you (you didn't touch the gear handle, etc.)? If so, what caused it?
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Yes. Cause: flight instructor
 
Re: Causes if gear ups

narchee said:
Yes, no matter what procedure you use, you MUST check on final. I physically briefly touch the gear lever while looking at the three green lights and say "gear is down" three to five times on final. It is an ingrained part of my procedure. Maybe a little OCD... I just never want to gear up so I'm okay with that :D
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Good practice.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I check multiple times as well, but that begs a question:

Have any of you ever had a gear SAFE indication that became a gear UNsafe indication, on the same landing attempt, without any interaction from you (you didn't touch the gear handle, etc.)? If so, what caused it?
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Lost the #2 dual fed bus in a King Air 200 on short final after I had seen the gear lights. Quite a few other lights went out too. Accused the check airman (this was a on a line check). He gave me a funny look and said "I didn't touch anything!". Decided to land anyway. It was uneventful.
 
I'll also announce out loud, even if I'm by myself, "Gear coming down" before I operate the gear switch. And then monitor the gear lamp and emergency extension lever for proper movement and illumination. Then announce again, "Gear is Down" once confirmed. Plenty of pilots insist they put the gear down and they did, only to find a popped circuit breaker, that didn't allow the cycle to complete.
You just can't get to complacent when it comes to these things, yet it's so easy to do. :nono:
 
luvflyin said:
Well, now that you mention it. If everyone can't answer yes to this, somewhere out there is a CFI who ain't doin his job
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I was doing the complex sign-off/5 hr insurance minimum in an Arrow. On downwind, three green/no red, turned base, 3 black. Hmmmm, better not land just yet.

Left the pattern, fiddled with things and found the cabin light rheostat turned down. Turned it back up and had three green again...gave instructor dirty look, landed plane.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I check multiple times as well, but that begs a question:

Have any of you ever had a gear SAFE indication that became a gear UNsafe indication, on the same landing attempt, without any interaction from you (you didn't touch the gear handle, etc.)? If so, what caused it?
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Yeah, loose bulb connection. Pushed the green light. Came back on.

I have had a couple gear malfunctions:

1. Bad hydraulic pump. Gear kept dropping and cycling on it's own. Lowered it and continued the flight home.

2. I had a loss of climb performance after takeoff. At first I thought I was having engine problems, they I tried cycling the gear to see if it was down. Nada. The switch had no effect either way. I headed back to the field and informed the tower of my gear situation, and orbited a while to troubleshoot, then did a manual extend using the dump valve. Whew, that worked. I thought. I was cleared for a low pass so they could take a look at the gear, but I finally managed to get three greens. Landed without incident. Turned out to be a busted hydraulic line.

By the way, Arrows have a gear autoextension system that automatically lowers the gear under low power and low airspeed, sensed by a pitot tube on the body. Sometimes it will lower the gear on climbout, or drop it before I want it dropped. Part of my checklist flow is to lock the autoextend system out on takeoff, and re-engage it once I reach cruise. I would just fly with it locked out, but I leave it engaged for the benefit of the Other Guy.
 
Clark1961 said:
Left the pattern, fiddled with things and found the cabin light rheostat turned down. Turned it back up and had three green again...gave instructor dirty look, landed plane.
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These airplanes sure become flying pieces of **** whenever an instructor gets in them. The vacuum pump fails almost every time I get in the airplane now.
 
Re: Causes if gear ups

EdFred said:
No, no no. That's a horrible idea.

Do things the same EVERY SINGLE TIME. You fly patterns just like you would if leaving it. That includes flipping off the fuel pump, raising the gear, adjusting the prop/mixture, everything. Then on downwind do your entire landing routine.

Not sometimes do this, sometimes do that - THAT is how gear ups happen.
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Hey that advice came from Rod Machado a big time pilot and author and ATP (absolutely terrific pilot)............lol.........:yes:
 
Re: Causes if gear ups

Vf6cruiser said:
Hey that advice came from Rod Machado a big time pilot and author and ATP (absolutely terrific pilot)............lol.........:yes:
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Then Rod Machado is an idiot.

Apparently he has never heard of the Law of Primacy
 
Re: Causes if gear ups

EdFred said:
Then Rod Machado is an idiot.

Apparently he has never heard of the Law of Primacy
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Checklist sir. Pretty sure I recall that lesson by Rod, and he was adamant about using the checklist, everytime, all the time. Possibly due to the law of primacy, I don't know his motivation but no - he's not an idiot.
 
Re: Causes if gear ups

docmirror said:
Checklist sir. Pretty sure I recall that lesson by Rod, and he was adamant about using the checklist, everytime, all the time. Possibly due to the law of primacy, I don't know his motivation but no - he's not an idiot.
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If he says to leave the gear down when doing pattern work in a retract, then I stand by my assertion.
 
Speaking of doing patternwork in a retract. In the BUFF, we would leave the flaps, not the gear, extended during that portion of the sortie. Somewhat of a necessity, when it took all of 60 seconds for the entire god forsaken flap deployment. Blasted pirate ship that thing was.....
 
EdFred said:
Having the plane for sale for 2+ years with no buyers is one as well.
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Just curious, if one wanted to land gear up purposefully, what choices would one make?

To start, would you choose a sleepy untowered airport? What radio calls would you make? Would you do it when the FBO is open or closed? Would you do choose a landing spot close to the FBO to minimize walking, or far away so that nobody can watch?
 
NoHeat said:
Just curious, if one wanted to land gear up purposefully, what choices would one make?

To start, would you choose a sleepy untowered airport? What radio calls would you make? Would you do it when the FBO is open or closed? Would you do choose a landing spot close to the FBO to minimize walking, or far away so that nobody can watch?
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Hold on!! Putting some popcorn in the microwave and grabbing a drink!

:popcorn:
 
NoHeat said:
Just curious, if one wanted to land gear up purposefully, what choices would one make?

To start, would you choose a sleepy untowered airport? What radio calls would you make? Would you do it when the FBO is open or closed? Would you do choose a landing spot close to the FBO to minimize walking, or far away so that nobody can watch?
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I'm not the one to ask. But if you poke around PoA, you'll find someone who can answer those questions.
 
comanche pilot said:
I'll also announce out loud, even if I'm by myself, "Gear coming down" before I operate the gear switch. And then monitor the gear lamp and emergency extension lever for proper movement and illumination. Then announce again, "Gear is Down" once confirmed. Plenty of pilots insist they put the gear down and they did, only to find a popped circuit breaker, that didn't allow the cycle to complete.
You just can't get to complacent when it comes to these things, yet it's so easy to do. :nono:
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I was drilled into my head to make an "out loud" confirmation of three green on short final. It's pretty hard for the Navion not to put the gear out if you can move the handle (though I've had the lights not light up because switches are misaligned). I've caught only two green once (after I was sure they all lit up initially).

The "final check" turned out to be fortuitous as I was landing after my engine failure. I'd managed to get back over the runway and at about 200 AGL I noticed the lights weren't on. Fortunately, they come down fast in the Navion.
 
I did patterns during one "sortie", but they were full stop, and yes the gear came up every time (kinda, we were having some trouble with that). I certainly wouldn't try touch and goes with a complex aircraft. Too much to do in too little time. Too many possibilities for bent metal.
 
steingar said:
I did patterns during one "sortie", but they were full stop, and yes the gear came up every time (kinda, we were having some trouble with that). I certainly wouldn't try touch and goes with a complex aircraft. Too much to do in too little time. Too many possibilities for bent metal.
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I do the same thing in the Cutlass. It's no big deal to add 0.1 on the Hobbs for a taxi-back. I only have about 15 hours in complex aircraft, so I'm definitely slow and deliberate.
 
flyingron said:
I was drilled into my head to make an "out loud" confirmation of three green on short final. It's pretty hard for the Navion not to put the gear out if you can move the handle (though I've had the lights not light up because switches are misaligned). I've caught only two green once (after I was sure they all lit up initially).

The "final check" turned out to be fortuitous as I was landing after my engine failure. I'd managed to get back over the runway and at about 200 AGL I noticed the lights weren't on. Fortunately, they come down fast in the Navion.
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Not to mention the thud you get through the seat when they drop.
Issue with Navion 34K I had was with lights on, the greens were so dim I had to cycle several times, then I turned off the nav lights and found the three green. I have to remember to check the dimmer. 5 hours in a complex. I hope to build good habits to keep me from being THAT guy. Downwind three checks, base one, final one. Don't count on the gear horn since one cannot hear it over the engine.
 
Re: Causes if gear ups

EdFred said:
Then Rod Machado is an idiot.

Apparently he has never heard of the Law of Primacy
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Ever heard of the law of distraction? in a busy pattern its easy to get distracted......a call for a 270........a light that comes on......super easy on a go around to assume the gear is down because you put it down on final, if you just flip it up and then get busy........well that's when it gets expensive. I'm with Machado......once in landing mode at the airport just leave the gear down.........ez peazie and it will work every time................
 
Re: Causes if gear ups

Vf6cruiser said:
Ever heard of the law of distraction? in a busy pattern its easy to get distracted......a call for a 270........a light that comes on......super easy on a go around to assume the gear is down because you put it down on final, if you just flip it up and then get busy........well that's when it gets expensive. I'm with Machado......once in landing mode at the airport just leave the gear down.........ez peazie and it will work every time................
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Except the distractions work both ways. You have to have a way/some kind of final check that will catch you if you get distracted.

There have been guys who subscribed to the 'leave the gear down for pattern work' whose routine got screwed up and STILL managed to land with the wheels in the wells. All it takes is something like Tower breaking your pattern - sending you on an extended downwind where you decide to bring the gear up because you are flying out so far and then you forget to put them back down again, because your developed routine 'always leaves the gear down doing pattern work'.

I know a couple guys who landed a T-6 gear up who previously believed and tried to follow your advice.
 
It's just common sense to leave the gear down.........less wear and tear and how do you know they will work with the next flip of the switch? you don't........so if you get it down leave it down and shell out for the extra .5 gallon of avgas in the pattern from drag and be happy........on your go around or touch and go...........
 
Vf6cruiser said:
It's just common sense to leave the gear down.........less wear and tear and how do you know they will work with the next flip of the switch? you don't........so if you get it down leave it down and shell out for the extra .5 gallon of avgas in the pattern from drag and be happy........on your go around or touch and go...........
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It has ZERO to do with wear and tear, drag, and fuel. But I can guarantee someone that doesn't do the SAME ROUTINE EVERY TIME vs someone who does will be many many times more likely to gear it up. Man crush on Machado that you can't see the advice he is offering is well, retarded?

It's not common sense. Not even close. It's idiocy.
 
I would say do whatever you want, but personally, I would put the gear up on a go-around or a flight around the pattern.
 
EdFred said:
It has ZERO to do with wear and tear, drag, and fuel. But I can guarantee someone that doesn't do the SAME ROUTINE EVERY TIME vs someone who does will be many many times more likely to gear it up. Man crush on Machado that you can't see the advice he is offering is well, retarded?

It's not common sense. Not even close. It's idiocy.
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I dunno. This seems really obvious to me, but apparently it isn't to everyone.

Practicing something WRONG is far, far, far worse than not practicing it at all. When the time comes, you will do it wrong. Every musician knows this. Probably every athlete as well.

It's the same reason I have a gear horn rule in complex aircraft. If the horn sounds unexpectedly, airspeed goes below Vle and gear goes down. Even if it goes right back up again. The ONLY exception is a preplanned and briefed action, such as an engine-out at altitude or emergency descent practice (it can be argued that the latter should be done at low speed with the gear and flaps down). I've gotten tripped up by this a few times descending rapidly from a pass to make it under a low Class B shelf, and I refuse to train in ignoring a gear horn.
 
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