Carrying minimal paper

cameronbm

cameronbm

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Bruce Cameron
The other day I was involved in a deep philosophical discussion (beer was involved, a copy of the FARS was not) with a couple of other pilots over the minimum amount of paper one was required to carry in an aircraft.

As the conversation devolved, we were able to agree on a few things - "required" meant "need to get through a ramp inspection", and that the point of the question was to determine the minimum amount of paper a private pilot should have in his personal plane being operated for personal (not-for-hire) use.

The general consensus was that one needed:

  • Medical certificate
  • Pilot certificate
  • ARROW documents
There was a difference of opinion as to what else might be necessary and what could/should be left at home locked in a safe.

So what's the minimal amount of actual paper documents one needs to have at hand in a plane?

Bruce
 
cameronbm said:
The other day I was involved in a deep philosophical discussion (beer was involved, a copy of the FARS was not) with a couple of other pilots over the minimum amount of paper one was required to carry in an aircraft.

As the conversation devolved, we were able to agree on a few things - "required" meant "need to get through a ramp inspection", and that the point of the question was to determine the minimum amount of paper a private pilot should have in his personal plane being operated for personal (not-for-hire) use.

The general consensus was that one needed:

  • Medical certificate
  • Pilot certificate
  • ARROW documents
There was a difference of opinion as to what else might be necessary and what could/should be left at home locked in a safe.

So what's the minimal amount of actual paper documents one needs to have at hand in a plane?

Bruce
Click to expand...

Are you asking legally or practically?
 
cameronbm said:
<snip> over the minimum amount of paper one was required to carry in an aircraft.

The general consensus was that one needed:

  • Medical certificate
  • Pilot certificate
  • ARROW documents
So what's the minimal amount of actual paper documents one needs to have at hand in a plane?

Bruce
Click to expand...

Not trying to pick nits but most Pilot Certificates (particularly new ones) are not Paper, they are plastic.

Missa
 
The private (or higher grade certificat) pilot needs:
Pilot certificate
Medical Certificate
Photo ID (I think)

The airplane needs:
Airworthiness Certificate
Registration
Operating Limitations (possibly in AFM as well as placards)
Weight and Balance info.
Any supplemental documents required by the type certificate, AFM, or supplements.

That's for basic flight.

I think that for IFR you also need:
Charts appropriate for the flight (paper or approved electronic)
Anything called out in the TC, AFM, or supplements as being required for IFR. Example - IFR GPS Pilot Reference book or card.

Things that aren't required:
Airframe, Powerplant, Avionics Logs (and wherever you log your IFR VOR checks and IFR GPS database updates).
Logbook (except for some student operations - maybe recreational too?).

I look forward to corrections.
 
There' something like having to carry the 337 for installed extra fuel tanks that are not in the wings.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Given the context of the original post, I think you are missing the point, intentionally or otherwise.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

He has it for minimal on board to pass a ramp check.

If the Ops inspector starts asking "So, where are you going? What type flight?" Then you may need some additional "paper" to support your responses.
 
you DO have to have a photo id as well as the medical, certificate and arrow stuff.

You don't have to have a sectional, but you're responsible for the stuff that's on it, plus any new stuff you'd have gotten had you done a briefing.

Oh, and a live ten pound duck. You have to have one of those, too, even though they aren't made of paper, though they'll eat it, in a pinch. I'm pretty sure we have to carry a duck.
 
etsisk said:
..
Oh, and a live ten pound duck. You have to have one of those, too, even though they aren't made of paper, though they'll eat it, in a pinch. I'm pretty sure we have to carry a duck.
Click to expand...
The duck is only required for flight in IMC.
 
cameronbm said:
<snip>

The general consensus was that one needed:

  • Medical certificate
  • Pilot certificate
  • ARROW documents
There was a difference of opinion as to what else might be necessary and what could/should be left at home locked in a safe.

So what's the minimal amount of actual paper documents one needs to have at hand in a plane?

Bruce
Click to expand...

Absolute minimum is.

Pilot Certificate
Government Issued Photo ID
AROW (Airworthiness, Registration, Operating limitation, Weight & Balance)

That is it.

Medical is not required if aircraft qualifies for Light Sport or Glider.
Radio License is only required for international flights.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
brcase said:
Absolute minimum is.

Pilot Certificate
Government Issued Photo ID
AROW (Airworthiness, Registration, Operating limitation, Weight & Balance)

That is it.

Medical is not required if aircraft qualifies for Light Sport or Glider.
Radio License is only required for international flights.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...

"that the point of the question was to determine the minimum amount of paper a private pilot should have in his personal plane being operated for personal (not-for-hire) use."
 
Most photo ID's are plastic along with the Pilot certification so all the PAPER you need is:

Medical
AROW (Airworthiness, Registration, Operating limitation, Weight & Balance)
 
etsisk said:
y
Oh, and a live ten pound duck. You have to have one of those, too, even though they aren't made of paper, though they'll eat it, in a pinch. I'm pretty sure we have to carry a duck.
Click to expand...

I thought an old mangy stray cat was also required. Again, perhaps only for flight into IMC

Bruce
 
I think this gets to the heart of the discussion (baring the paper/plastic argument).

I think the paper requirement got inserted into the discussion because charts, flight plans, forecasts, reference materials, etc could be managed electronically.

Bruce
 
The practical minimum that keeps you legal.

Bruce
 
BTW, a Student Pilot acting as PIC has the same paper requirements as a PPL acting as PIC, including the photo ID. However, in most cases, the Student Pilot's medical and pilot certificates are printed on the same piece of paper. And, as noted, if you're not crossing the US border, the radio licenses (operator and station) are not required.

On the aircraft side, the required W&B data includes both the empty weight/cg/moment data (copy is fine -- original not required) as well as an equipment list; the W&B envelope is included in the "O" (operating limitations) of ARROW. In addition, you must have an approved 337 in the plane to cover any extra fuel tank in the passenger or baggage compartments (14 CFR 91.203(c) -- a popular "stump the chump" question on checkrides).
 
Ron, isn't there a requirement for some pilots to have with them their logbooks, for endorsements? Ah, I remember! Recreational pilots training to be private pilots will have their X/C endorsements in their logbooks, since they won't have a student certificate any more.

Student pilots may also need to carry their logs for endorsements if they can't get their endorsement to fit on their student certificate.
 
TMetzinger said:
Ron, isn't there a requirement for some pilots to have with them their logbooks, for endorsements?
Click to expand...
Also, those who hold a sport pilot certificate (but not private pilots operating under the sport pilot rule) must carry their logbook to show proof of being endorsed for the particular category, class, and set of aircraft they're flying, and, if needed, endorsements for Vh (max cruising speed) over 87 knots and flight into class B/C/D airspace.
 
Missa said:
Most photo ID's are plastic along with the Pilot certification so all the PAPER you need is:

Medical
AROW (Airworthiness, Registration, Operating limitation, Weight & Balance)
Click to expand...
...unless you're operating under the sport pilot rule, in which case you don't need the medical as long as you have a (normally, plastic) driver's license.
 
TMetzinger said:
I think that for IFR you also need:
Charts appropriate for the flight (paper or approved electronic)
Click to expand...
As long as we're picking nits ;)

Note that there is no "legal" requirement for appropriate charts in a Part 91, non-subpart-K-or-F airplane, even under IFR.

Note also that this would be fairly stupid, and I'm sure the "make you wish you HAD" argument certainly applies. So...are charts part of the "minimum paper required" in the original question?
 
I _think_ that violations issued and appealed have set a precedent that charts aren't required for VFR, but are required for IFR under part 91. But again, this is foggy memory.
 
I found this on the subject when I was trying to find out the answer to the question "Do I need current charts?" (That was before I found this board!)

http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/faq#q2e

What is the FAA policy for carrying current charts?


The term "charts" is not found in the FAA's Part 91 regulations (other than for large and turbine-powered multiengine airplanes in 91.503[a]). The specific FAA regulation, FAR 91.103 "Preflight Actions," states that each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. What is not specifically addressed in the regulation is a requirement for charts. You should always carry a current chart for safety's sake. An expired chart will not show new frequencies or newly constructed obstructions, some of which could be tall enough to be a hazard along your route of flight.
  • The only FAA/FAR requirements that pertain to charts are:
  • Title 14 CFR section 91.503[a] (Large and Turbojet powered aircraft)
  • Title 14 CFR section 135.83 (Air Carriers-Little Airplane)
  • Title 14 CFR section 121.549 (Air Carrier-Big Airplanes)
  1. The FAA has rendered interpretations that have stated the foregoing. The subject of current charts was thoroughly covered in an article in the FAA's July/August 1997 issue of FAA Aviation News. That article was cleared through the FAA's Chief Counsel's office. In that article the FAA stated the following:
  2. "You can carry old charts in your aircraft." "It is not FAA policy to violate anyone for having outdated charts in the aircraft."
  3. "Not all pilots are required to carry a chart." "91.503..requires the pilot in command of large and multiengine airplanes to have charts." "Other operating sections of the FAR such as Part 121 and Part 135 operations have similar requirements."
  4. ..."since some pilots thought they could be violated for having outdated or no charts on board during a flight, we need to clarify an important issue. As we have said, it is NOT FAA policy to initiate enforcement action against a pilot for having an old chart on board or no chart on board." That's because there is no regulation on the issue.
  5. ..."the issue of current chart data bases in handheld GPS receivers is a non-issue because the units are neither approved by the FAA or required for flight, nor do panel-mounted VFR-only GPS receivers have to have a current data base because, like handheld GPS receivers, the pilot is responsible for pilotage under VFR.
  6. "If a pilot is involved in an enforcement investigation and there is evidence that the use of an out-of-date chart, no chart, or an out-of-date database contributed to the condition that brought on the enforcement investigation, then that information could be used in any enforcement action that might be taken."
If you, as an FAA Safety Inspector, Designated Pilot Examiner, Flight Instructor, or other aviation professional are telling pilots something other than the foregoing then you are incorrect.

The way I read it, you only need charts for large or multiengine airplanes or for Part 121 and 135 ops.

Tim
 
OOOPS. Please do not take the above as me supporting flying with outdated charts, I always fly with current paper:yes:
 
Please don't bow, I am so new at this pilot stuff I got excited about passing 70 hours PIC yesterday!:redface:

Tim
 
Capjac said:
The way I read it, you only need charts for large or multiengine airplanes or for Part 121 and 135 ops.
Click to expand...
The way I read item 6 in that list, you'd better not believe the rest too much if you know what's good for you. Kinda like the Army -- they can't make you do anything, but they can make you wish to God you had.

"Aeronautical charts -- don't leave the home 'drome without 'em."
 
Ron Levy said:
The way I read item 6 in that list, you'd better not believe the rest too much if you know what's good for you. Kinda like the Army -- they can't make you do anything, but they can make you wish to God you had.

"Aeronautical charts -- don't leave the home 'drome without 'em."
Click to expand...
Tis what I teach. Once a chart expires, keep it for practice use but mark it "Training Use Only." Then, keep it out of the airplane and buy a new one.
 
Thanks for the info on charts. #5 covers the argument whether electronic charts would suffice and #6 provides the incentive not to argue the case.

Bruce
 
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