Carrying extra speed on final - WOAH, Challenger!

[wsuffa]

NYC05CA068

On April 2, 2005, about 1717 eastern standard time, N169TA, a Canadair CL-600-2A12, was substantially damaged during landing at the Teterboro Airport (TEB), Teterboro, New Jersey. The two certificated airline transport pilots, and two passengers were not injured. Instrument meteorological conditions prevailed for the executive transport flight that departed Dallas Love Field Airport (DAL), Dallas, Texas, destined for the Teterboro Airport. An instrument flight rules flight plan was filed and activated for the flight conducted under 14 CFR Part 91.

According to the captain, the airplane departed Love Field, climbed to Flight Level 370, and cruised to the New Jersey area without incident. The airplane held about 35 miles west of the Teterboro Airport for approximately 40 minutes, before being vectored onto the final approach course for the ILS Runway 19 Approach. The captain configured the airplane to land, and flew the final segment of the approach at Vref plus 30 knots because of turbulence and reported wind gusts.

As the captain initiated a flare to land on runway 19, the airplane encountered windsheer. It touched down hard on the main landing gear, bounced, and then touched down again on the nose wheel. The captain stabilized the airplane, slowed to taxi speed, and exited the runway. Once clear of the active, maintenance inspected the airplane for damage. The nose gear was then "blocked," and the airplane towed to a hangar. The captain added that during the en route and arrival phases of the flight, he periodically checked the weather via a data uplink, and was aware of the current weather conditions.

According to the operator, examination of the airplane revealed damage to the right wingtip, right outboard flap jackscrew cover, and the pressure bulkhead in the vicinity of the nose gear box.

A weather observation taken at the Teterboro Airport, 26 minutes prior to the accident, recorded the following: wind 150 degrees at 26 knots, gusting to 37 knots; visibility 1 mile in light rain and drizzle; broken clouds at 1,500 feet; overcast clouds at 2,400 feet; temperature 55 degrees Fahrenheit; dew point 54 degrees Fahrenheit; and an altimeter setting of 29.35 inches of mercury.

 

[RobertGerace]

NYC05CA068

A weather observation taken at the Teterboro Airport, 26 minutes prior to the accident, recorded the following: wind 150 degrees at 26 knots, gusting to 37 knots; visibility 1 mile in light rain and drizzle; broken clouds at 1,500 feet; overcast clouds at 2,400 feet; temperature 55 degrees Fahrenheit; dew point 54 degrees Fahrenheit; and an altimeter setting of 29.35 inches of mercury.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and risk some flames. (Ooops...wrong board..no flames here)

I fly in the above conditions on a fairly regular basis.

On sunday I had a direct cross wind in Tampa...I don't remember the velocity but the windsock was straight out and gusting up and down. But Atlanta I remember...Runway 25 was in use, Wind was 300 at 18 gusting 30.

The ride down final was interesting to say the least.

I feel like I'm trained for it, and proficient, and my landings were fine.

I, too, carried some extra speed...not on final but at flare...I flare at about 95 in no-wind and flared at 115 in those conditions.

I think there is more to the story...inattention...or...two people thinking each other is flying...or...distraction...something just doesn't sound right. If we were to believe that story, nobody would fly in wind, right?

Then again, in a jet, it takes some time to spool up. If they got too slow for the windsheer and needed power, I could see them hitting the runway before they had power to climb out of it. Advantage: Piston!!

 

[bbchien]

I fly in those conditions all the time, too. Last weekend took a professor to FDK for an AOPA function. On the way back, we were flying through that huge midcontinent strom that put snow in Michigan and Ohio. 24 G 37 true crosswind, 1500 and 3 in cloud, mist, fog at MGY on the localizer. Plenty of runway, carried about 10 extra knots in the flare, touched at 75 mph per usual. Did NOT have to bring the upwind engine up.

It's the pilot. NYC05CA068 probably could have made it had he had the luxury of practice and a willing owner. But that's not usually the case with a 12 mil turbojet.

 

[poadeleted20]

A weather observation taken at the Teterboro Airport, 26 minutes prior to the accident, recorded the following: wind 150 degrees at 26 knots, gusting to 37 knots; visibility 1 mile in light rain and drizzle; broken clouds at 1,500 feet; overcast clouds at 2,400 feet; temperature 55 degrees Fahrenheit; dew point 54 degrees Fahrenheit; and an altimeter setting of 29.35 inches of mercury.

While I am not rated in the CL-600 and don't know what specific guidance is in its AFM, given the general rule of adding 1/2 the gust factor (in this case, 37 - 26 = 11 knots divided by 2 = 5-6 knots), an extra 30 knots of speed over the fence seems, at first blush, excessive. My non-scientific experience suggests that more accidents are caused by extra speed on approach than not enough, and that issue is a known problem in the Grumman community where OWT's have pushed inadequately or improperly trained pilots into carrying unnecessary and counterproductive extra speed.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I've flown my A-36 in conditions like this and, although a challenge, didn't have a problem. (I don't make a habbit of this). I've also shot the approach 30 knots fast and not had a problem (in consideration of traffic spacing). My plane is very easy to slow down; so, it may be substantially different. I can't understand how 30 extra knots would make a diffenence on a long runway if the pilot properly compensates. Perhaps some of you big iron guys can 'xplain it to us FLIBS!!

Best,

Dave

 

[spiderweb]

I don't know nothin' but it does seem to me that excess speed might not have helped, here.

 

[gismo]

While I am not rated in the CL-600 and don't know what specific guidance is in its AFM, given the general rule of adding 1/2 the gust factor (in this case, 37 - 26 = 11 knots divided by 2 = 5-6 knots), an extra 30 knots of speed over the fence seems, at first blush, excessive. My non-scientific experience suggests that more accidents are caused by extra speed on approach than not enough, and that issue is a known problem in the Grumman community where OWT's have pushed inadequately or improperly trained pilots into carrying unnecessary and counterproductive extra speed.

I'm pretty sure that Vref isn't the no wind approach speed. IIRC the book on some jets calls for a significant number of knots above Vref under many conditions. IOW I doubt that the pilot added 30 Kt to the "normal" approach speed.

 

[Henning]

Lessee, drove it in way too hot, drove it on the runway, bounced it, freaked, stuck the nose into it...spells 709 to me.