Cargo flying - poor equipment?

dans2992

dans2992

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Dans2992
Ok, so I talked to someone from one of the major cargo outfits at AirVenture that hires entry-level pilots (i.e. if you meet 135 mins).

The hiring manager stressed that they were looking for good single-pilot IFR skills based on raw, steam-gauge data, since their aircraft typically have neither a GPS nor an autopilot. That's fine, and if I were looking for a job there, I would definitely practice that in the SIM without GPS, Foreflight, etc. to ensure I had it down cold.

With the NAS rapidly moving towards sat nav and away from VORs, I have to question why they have not outfitted their planes with GPS. Surely the cost of a 430W is not prohibitive for an operation flying 5 days a week..? I suppose by 2020, they will HAVE to install a GPS....

Also, I am thinking lack of an AP could be a safety issue. Even the FAA has recognized this since SP 135 pax-carrying IFR is prohibited without one.
 
I'd highly doubt they aren't /G, Ameriflight and Wiggins (same place now) operate into our field, they shoot the RNAV, many of the smaller UPS hubs are next to fields with only RNAVs, ILSs tend to live in larger cities.
 
One word.

GREED.

Some of these cargo companies are all about the mighty dollar. Lets not think twice about outfitting the aircraft well and hiring long term employees when we can get low time stupid pilots for almost nothing. Better yet we can charge to let people sit in the right seat.

GPS and autopilots cost money. Lets see, as a company owner I can afford to put such trivial equipment in my planes or I can buy that 7000 square foot house on 300 acres...which one shall it be....:idea:And the owner will tell you how they are barely making payroll each month.:rolleyes2:

Don't like flying single pilot IFR on just A/S, ball and needle? Out you go and in with the next.

But pilots are our own worst enemy and will take a job like this just to build twin time or IFR time as well as total time.....:mad2:

As James said not all cargo companies are like that. Some fly good equipment with modern cockpits. And pay livable wages.
 
James331 said:
I'd highly doubt they aren't /G, Ameriflight and Wiggins (same place now) operate into our field, they shoot the RNAV, many of the smaller UPS hubs are next to fields with only RNAVs, ILSs tend to live in larger cities.
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Probably 80% of the Ameriflight planes weren't /G when I was there. The bigger the planes get, the more likely having a GPS was, but that really wasn't a sure fire thing.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Probably 80% of the Ameriflight planes weren't /G when I was there. The bigger the planes get, the more likely having a GPS was, but that really wasn't a sure fire thing.
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Am Flight operates two planes in here 6 days a week... The 1900 carries Fed Ex stuff and the 99 is for UPS... About 1/2 the time they file /G....

Funny thing is during the off season, they very rarely fill each plane to 25% capacity and both come from the base in SLC and park right next to each other here and in SLC... The pilots are usually great guys and alot have asked for rides in my plane as they see it operate out of here almost daily, and they all get a kick out of 70-90' take off rolls...

So, during those flights I always ask, " why not just fly one plane in during the slow times to save money" They answer " because Fed Ex and UPS contracts dictate they cannot co- mingle freight with competitors... :mad2::mad2::mad2:.. Corporate world at it worst...:rolleyes:....

To keep this on track with the thread.. even though Am Filght planes look like crap from the outside,, they hardly ever have a mechanical issue that scrubs the flight...
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Probably 80% of the Ameriflight planes weren't /G when I was there. The bigger the planes get, the more likely having a GPS was, but that really wasn't a sure fire thing.
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Up here it would just be stupid not to have /G

How silly, the AP is one thing, but /G is imagine would be a huge ROI for a cargo op.
 
N801BH said:
Am Flight operates two planes in here 6 days a week... The 1900 carries Fed Ex stuff and the 99 is for UPS... About 1/2 the time they file /G....

Funny thing is during the off season, they very rarely fill each plane to 25% capacity and both come from the base in SLC and park right next to each other here and in SLC... The pilots are usually great guys and alot have asked for rides in my plane as they see it operate out of here almost daily, and they all get a kick out of 70-90' take off rolls...

So, during those flights I always ask, " why not just fly one plane in during the slow times to save money" They answer " because Fed Ex and UPS contracts dictate they cannot co- mingle freight with competitors... :mad2::mad2::mad2:.. Corporate world at it worst...:rolleyes:....

To keep this on track with the thread.. even though Am Filght planes look like crap from the outside,, they hardly ever have a mechanical issue that scrubs the flight...
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They know where they need the /G, they know where they don't. Hardly any of the planes based in PHX had them. Don't really need them there honestly.

James331 said:
Up here it would just be stupid not to have /G

How silly, the AP is one thing, but /G is imagine would be a huge ROI for a cargo op.
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Because they don't get to bill UPS/DHL/FedEx more based on having a GPS. And just like the regional airline market, the 135 small package freight market is consolidating and struggling to staff airplanes. It's not like they can drop your contract and find someone else to fly the routes.
 
Why do the planes in PHX not need /G? They don't fly these VFR, do they?
 
N801BH said:
Am Flight operates two planes in here 6 days a week... The 1900 carries Fed Ex stuff and the 99 is for UPS... About 1/2 the time they file /G....

Funny thing is during the off season, they very rarely fill each plane to 25% capacity and both come from the base in SLC and park right next to each other here and in SLC... The pilots are usually great guys and alot have asked for rides in my plane as they see it operate out of here almost daily, and they all get a kick out of 70-90' take off rolls...
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Was one of those pilots Greg?
 
N801BH said:
To keep this on track with the thread.. even though Am Filght planes look like crap from the outside,, they hardly ever have a mechanical issue that scrubs the flight...
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They have a very low tolerance for mechanical problems due to their contracts. If they can't diagnose AND repair an engine within a few hours, off it comes and another QEC replaces it. Send the whole thing back to the overhaul shop and let them figure it out and send it back, ready for the next time there is a problem. Doesn't sound cost effective until you see what UPS/FedEx charges them if they're late. That said, it's rare for one of their engines to not make TBO, even with junior drivers. They might not have all /G, but they're not afraid to spend money where it's really needed.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Because PHX has full ILS capability and is IFR something like 2 days per year.
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dans2992 said:
Why do the planes in PHX not need /G? They don't fly these VFR, do they?
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Because like was said, it's VFR. And yes, they are commonly flown VFR down there, gets you in and out of PHX quicker.

dans2992 said:
The outstations don't all have ILSes and the weather up there in the winter can be quite low...
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Other than FLG & SOW, nothing really gets bad that AMF serves in Arizona.
 
Minor derail:

Do some of you consider not having the latest and greatest as having poor equipment?
 
If an aircraft still had an AN range to navigate with, yes, I'd say it's poor equipment. At some point you have to draw the line.

Around 2020 or so, I'd say any aircraft that's not /G has "poor equipment" if you're planning to fly IFR. The FAA pulls no punches when they say VORs are being decommissioned. Many are, and many won't be repaired when they fail.

I mean really, you can throw in a used 430W for what, maybe $7k installed?

Taking to another pilot from said carrier (who was flying a lobster run up to AK), he was darn glad to have a personal GPS since the only VOR in the area decided to fail during his flight up in IMC.
 
dans2992 said:
If an aircraft still had an AN range to navigate with, yes, I'd say it's poor equipment. At some point you have to draw the line.

Around 2020 or so, I'd say any aircraft that's not /G has "poor equipment" if you're planning to fly IFR. The FAA pulls no punches when they say VORs are being decommissioned. Many are, and many won't be repaired when they fail.

I mean really, you can throw in a used 430W for what, maybe $7k installed?

Taking to another pilot from said carrier (who was flying a lobster run up to AK), he was darn glad to have a personal GPS since the only VOR in the area decided to fail during his flight up in IMC.
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Sure, you can do that, but can a 135 carrier do it for that kind of money? Not a fat chance in heck. Plus, any sort of air carrier putting in a soon to be unsupported GPS would be colossal mistake. At least where I was flying 135 (mentioned by name by other people here), they made the decision to start slowly putting GTN750's in the airplanes, rather than an old box that wouldn't be supported down the road.
 
Its extraordinarily rare than I see an Ameriflight airplane /G, or a check hauler be they in a C206 or Baron with a certified GPS.

Honest question as someone who hasn't flown regularly in 10 years. Are we at a point that glass/certified GPS/Tablets are indispensable tools for flight? I understand technology moves fast, but holy crap, I got my instrument 10 years ago with only an NDB to the home field as a 430 cost as much as a mid time C150 at the time.

I don't want to come off as an old geezer at the ripe old age of 32, but I've been noticing things that make that assumption more likely. I've seen so many Bravo busts I wonder if pre flights now only involve flying the magenta line after punching direct to and I've seen VFR's declare emergencies in VMC 5 minutes after departure on FF for GPS failure.

Where are WE exactly, and I capitalize the we because my PVT INST sits first an foremost in my wallet.
 
Approach_controller said:
Its extraordinarily rare than I see an Ameriflight airplane /G, or a check hauler be they in a C206 or Baron with a certified GPS.

Honest question as someone who hasn't flown regularly in 10 years. Are we at a point that glass/certified GPS/Tablets are indispensable tools for flight? I understand technology moves fast, but holy crap, I got my instrument 10 years ago with only an NDB to the home field as a 430 cost as much as a mid time C150 at the time.

I don't want to come off as an old geezer at the ripe old age of 32, but I've been noticing things that make that assumption more likely. I've seen so many Bravo busts I wonder if pre flights now only involve flying the magenta line after punching direct to and I've seen VFR's declare emergencies in VMC 5 minutes after departure on FF for GPS failure.

Where are WE exactly, and I capitalize the we because my PVT INST sits first an foremost in my wallet.
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Plenty of /A planes flying and will be for years to come. Yes, some people think they need big screen televisions in the panel. By and large those aren't the people paying the bills.

BTW just had an electrical spike take out both the 430W and the kx155 in our kiing air. I needed to make a flight so i slapped in the only radio on our shelf, a kx170b. I feel like i'm back in college flying cancelled checks in 1992. I'm done spending money on this thing and the majority owner cant be bothered. The kx170 will be a permanent addition if i get my way.
 
JHW said:
BTW just had an electrical spike take out both the 430W and the kx155 in our kiing air. I needed to make a flight so i slapped in the only radio on our shelf, a kx170b. I feel like i'm back in college flying cancelled checks in 1992. I'm done spending money on this thing and the majority owner cant be bothered. The kx170 will be a permanent addition if i get my way.
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Soooooooooo, how does one "slap in" a KX-170B in the place of a KX-155??? Are we to believe that you rewired the panel "to make a flight"? :dunno:
 
They have the same tray and pin outs. A lot of radios interchange even different brands. A KX-97, Narco Comm 810, ICOM 200/210 all use the same tray and pin outs for the basic operation. There are added pin outs for some of the added features but the basic radio functions all work on all of them. Don
 
RotorAndWing said:
Soooooooooo, how does one "slap in" a KX-170B in the place of a KX-155??? Are we to believe that you rewired the panel "to make a flight"? :dunno:
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yeah, that's about the size of it. One would think it's obvious that changing those radios requires a tray and log entry, but apparently everything has to be spelled out here.
 
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