Careless or Reckless

MachFly

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MachFly
Wasn't really sure where to post this, we need a legal section on the forum, anyways....


Everyone always talks about "careless or reckless," even though FAR doesn't specifically say something is illegal if it violates careless or reckless a pilot can lose his certificate.
Realistically does the FAA ever use §91.13 (careless or reckless) for enforcement purposes? If so, how often? and does anyone know of any specific case where someone's certificate was suspended or revoked due to violating §91.13?
 
If you aren't careless and reckless you have nothing to fear.
 
Wasn't really sure where to post this, we need a legal section on the forum, anyways....


Everyone always talks about "careless or reckless," even though FAR doesn't specifically say something is illegal if it violates careless or reckless a pilot can lose his certificate.
Realistically does the FAA ever use §91.13 (careless or reckless) for enforcement purposes? If so, how often? and does anyone know of any specific case where someone's certificate was suspended or revoked due to violating §91.13?
It's one of the listed offenses here: http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/o_n_o/docs/AVIATION/3683.PDF
 

Sounds like they wanted to violated him on doing an illegal airshow over a populated area, didn't have enough evidence for that, happen to find out that the guy was also drunk, took his certificate for that and threw in careless or reckless while they were at it. Am I understanding that correctly?

So what's the point of adding careless or reckless in there if they could have done the same exact thing without it (since he was drunk)?
 
They usually throw it in, and it can be supported by proving a violation of other regs. There is pleading requirement that they specifically plead if they are basing it on conduct that doesn't otherwise violate the regs. I'll see if I can find an enforcement action that spells it out and will post tomorrow if I do.
 
If you aren't careless and reckless you have nothing to fear.

The main reason why I'm asking this question is out of curiosity.
Here's the thing, you can define "careless or reckless" in any way you want, some may say that Red Bull air races are careless or reckless, some people may even say that flying in general is careless or reckless. Technically I can loose my certificate for not lowering my flaps on the pre-flight, that can be defined as careless or reckless.
 
The main reason why I'm asking this question is out of curiosity.
Here's the thing, you can define "careless or reckless" in any way you want, some may say that Red Bull air races are careless or reckless, some people may even say that flying in general is careless or reckless. Technically I can loose my certificate for not lowering my flaps on the pre-flight, that can be defined as careless or reckless.
Sorry mate I left off the sarcasm smiley. I was using sarcasm instead of saying it is a BS rule that can be used with zero discretion to hang anybody. Do you know that the non FAR careless and reckless laws apply even if you are only endangering yourself? Superlaw even counts victimless. Never mind your flaps everything you do is careless and reckless.
 
The Air races and air shows get specific waivers from the FAR, (as you no doubt know) and that's a lot of negotiation. If someone broke the rules outlined in the waiver then careless/reckless would apply there too.
 
I know of an incident where the pilot was suspended for 90 days for 91.13 only, for landing a C-182 on a remote country road, would not have been a issue except that he ran off the road into a ditch. Still probably wouldn't have been an issue if it hadn't been a rental airplane with a passenger on board.

Brian
 
Sorry mate I left off the sarcasm smiley. I was using sarcasm instead of saying it is a BS rule that can be used with zero discretion to hang anybody. Do you know that the non FAR careless and reckless laws apply even if you are only endangering yourself? Superlaw even counts victimless. Never mind your flaps everything you do is careless and reckless.

Yeah :rofl: :mad2:
 
The Air races and air shows get specific waivers from the FAR, (as you no doubt know) and that's a lot of negotiation. If someone broke the rules outlined in the waiver then careless/reckless would apply there too.

Here's the thing though. Say a Red Bull pilot flew a bit too low and too close to people when going from point A to point B (so not a race and no low alt waivers), no one would say anything to him or bring up the topic of careless or reckless because everyone knows that he is capable of flying much lower than that. FAA can't say you were careless and reckless when there is clear evidence of you being able to do that safely, regardless of the FARs.
 
I know of an incident where the pilot was suspended for 90 days for 91.13 only, for landing a C-182 on a remote country road, would not have been a issue except that he ran off the road into a ditch. Still probably wouldn't have been an issue if it hadn't been a rental airplane with a passenger on board.

Brian

Interesting.
I suspect they suspended his certificate on the basis of careless or reckless not because he was careless or reckless, but because he ****ed someone off.
He probably called someone to come get his place out of the ditch, somehow FAA got involved (probably local cops called them), an FAA inspected had to go there, he got ****ed off that because of that 182 pilot he can't sit in his comfy office the whole day and suspended the guy's certificate.
 
In Colorado law for road vehicles, careless and reckless driving both may result in injury or death but the underlying cause determines which is invoked. DUI and rear-ending another vehicle is reckless. Rear ending another vehicle because the road was slick ice, even if driving cautiously and well under the speed limit, that's careless if the responding officer decides to ticket.

Difference? The DUI driver made the choice to deliberately drink to excess.
 
Wasn't really sure where to post this, we need a legal section on the forum, anyways....


Everyone always talks about "careless or reckless," even though FAR doesn't specifically say something is illegal if it violates careless or reckless a pilot can lose his certificate.
Realistically does the FAA ever use §91.13 (careless or reckless) for enforcement purposes? If so, how often? and does anyone know of any specific case where someone's certificate was suspended or revoked due to violating §91.13?

From FAA Order 2150.3B


Appendix E. Examples

1. Elements of Regulations. A frequently-cited regulation is 14 C.F.R. § 91.13, Careless or Reckless Operation. This seemingly simple regulation has numerous elements. The actual wording is:

CARELESS OR RECKLESS OPERATION

(a) Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation. No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.

(b) Aircraft operations other than for the purpose of air navigation. No person may operate an aircraft, other than for the purpose of air navigation, on any part of the surface of an airport used by aircraft for air commerce (including areas used by those aircraft for receiving or discharging persons or cargo), in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.

a. Subparagraphs of 14 C.F.R. § 91.13. The regulation has two subparagraphs. Subparagraph (a) covers "Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation". Subparagraph (b) covers "Aircraft operations other than for the purpose of air navigation". Because the two subparagraphs cover two different conditions, i.e., for the purpose of air navigation vs. other than for the purpose of air navigation, there must be an item of proof (IOP) that provides evidence to identify one or the other as appropriate. If evidence shows that an aircraft was being taxied from the hanger to the line, subparagraph (b) would be appropriate. But if evidence shows an aircraft to have been on a take-off roll, then subparagraph (a) would be appropriate. There must be evidence to support the choice. Assume, for example, that the operation was for the purpose of air navigation and sub-paragraph (a) applies. The elements that must be included as an IOP are:

(1)A person.

(2)Operate (for purpose of air navigation).

(3)An aircraft.

(4)Careless or reckless.

(5)Endangerment.

(6)Life or property of another.

b. First Element. The first element is identifying the person, putting them in the aircraft, and proving that this person was an operator of the aircraft. Identifying the person and showing his or her operation of the aircraft may be done through witness statements, a response to the letter of investigation, documents such as logbooks, or training records, or Air Traffic reports. The form of the evidence can vary, but who the person is must be documented. For certificated airman, such as pilots and mechanics, ISIS data on qualifications will be an additional IOP.

c. Second Element. The second element to prove is that the aircraft was being operated for purposes of air navigation. For an aircraft that is airborne, or taxiing in from a flight, this is easy. For an aircraft that is on the ramp, or a taxiway, you will need some evidence to establish whether subparagraph (a) or (b) is the appropriate choice.

d. Third Element. The third element to prove is that an aircraft was involved. A definition of aircraft is found in 14 C.F.R. § 1.1, General Definitions. Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air. The specific form of the evidence can vary, but a specific aircraft must be identified through IOPs. A supporting IOP will be a copy of aircraft registration data from the Integrated Safety Information System (ISIS). [Note: Ultralights are not aircraft, they are vehicles, with their own definition under 14 CFR part 103.]

e. Fourth Element. The fourth element is selecting between careless or reckless and providing evidence to support the decision. Careless indicates a lack of care, an act a reasonably prudent person would not commit if mindful of the potential consequences. Reckless can be alleged when there is evidence that a person intended to do what they did. It is not necessary to prove, or even allege, that they knew that their action was a violation of any regulation. For either choice, the careless/reckless element must be supported by evidence in one or more IOPs.

(1) Example of reckless IOP. For example, during the investigation of a gear-up landing incident, the evidence may include a statement from the aircraft owner who had personally advised the pilot the gear system was inoperative or a statement from a passenger who was told by the pilot that the normal gear system was inoperative. This evidence may indicate that a charge of reckless is appropriate.

(2) Example of careless IOP. On the other hand, the evidence may include a picture of the aircraft on the runway with the gear-handle up, a statement from a mechanic saying the gear operated normally when tested, or a statement from the pilot saying he was preoccupied with other traffic. This evidence may indicate that a charge of careless is appropriate.

(3) Evidence indicating no violation. If the evidence included a mechanic’s statement and repair order stating that the gear malfunctioned because of a broken part, then there may be no violation of 14 C.F.R. § 91.13.

f. Fifth Element. The fifth element in this regulation is endanger . An IOP in a gear-up landing might consist of evidence documenting the aircraft damage that endangered the property of another. It is not necessary to show actual endangerment, evidence of potential endangerment is sufficient. Appropriate evidence in a low flying case might include pictures of a school playground that was flown over, statements from teachers describing children in the playground at the time, and the altitude of the aircraft relative to terrain features. Potential endangerment can often be best explained in the section B analysis.

g. Sixth Element. The sixth and final element in this example requires evidence that the endangerment was to the life or property of another. If the above gear-up landing example is in a rented aircraft, the evidence to prove this element could be an ISIS report showing that the owner is another. Evidence of a passenger in the aircraft would also support this element, as the passenger is another. If an aircraft flown solo was entirely owned by the violator, and if there is no nearby property or persons to be endangered, there very well may be no violation.

2. Summary. To summarize, all enforceable regulations include some number of elements and evidence to support each of the elements must be included in an EIR to support a violation.
 
From FAA Order 2150.3B


.....

So lets say, hypothetically, I decide to buzz a tree that's on an un-populated island, while flying solo. Someone takes a picture of me doing it from 5nm away and reports it to the FAA. Legally I am not violating any regulation by doing it (no people or man-made objects).

Realistically I assume no one at FAA would give a crap but say someone decided to do something about it. Can they call that careless or reckless?
 
So lets say, hypothetically, I decide to buzz a tree that's on an un-populated island, while flying solo. Someone takes a picture of me doing it from 5nm away and reports it to the FAA. Legally I am not violating any regulation by doing it (no people or man-made objects).

Realistically I assume no one at FAA would give a crap but say someone decided to do something about it. Can they call that careless or reckless?

Who owns the island and the tree? ;)
 
"Property of another".

Change your analogy to buzzing your farm with your airplane solo. Now you have elemenated the sixth element.

S**t, roger.


On that basis everything I do can potentially endanger the property of another. If I'm flying by that island (at 10K) and my wing falls off which causes me to crash on the island. I'm technically still violating careless or reckless because it was my fault that I overflew the island in the first plane. Right?
 
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S**t, roger.


On that basis everything I do can potentially endanger the property of another. If I'm flying by that island (at 10K) and my wing falls off which causes me to crash on the island. I'm technically still violating careless or reckless because it was my fault that I overflew the island in the first plane. Right?

You overflew well above the minimum safe altitude of 91.119, so I guess it would depend on what you did (or failed to do) that caused the wings to fall off.:eek:
 
You overflew well above the minimum safe altitude of 91.119, so I guess it would depend on what you did (or failed to do) that caused the wings to fall off.:eek:

Since there are no man made objects on the island or people 91.119 considers 1ft AGL safe. Yet I suspect FAA would still call that careless or reckless.
 

§91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General.
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

(d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface—

(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and

(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.

......
 

What if your hypothetical island is full of livestock. No people or man made objects there. If you buzzed the livestock or tree, that's property. Looks like (a) would apply.

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
 
I think what you're getting at is, how can one type of operation (Red Bull Races)be allowed but not for the average Joe it's considered careless or reckless? Well, one part of the answer s the FAA grants waivers based on the pilot experience involved. Pilots that obtain a low level air show waiver have demonstrated to the FAA that they can do it safely. Are there crashes? Yes but not enough for the FAA to consider it a 91.13 violation. Also, even with something like the Red Bull Races they have restrictions and pilots such as Nigel Lamb (flying too low) and others have been disqualified for violating them.

The second part is the eye of the beholder. I've known pilots in the Army who had their PIC orders pulled for doing something careless or reckless. Even though they didn't violate any flight reg or aircraft operating limitation, the commander who was in charge of them, thought it was unnecessary. Sometimes there's a fine line between flying tactical and flying reckless in the military and that's when the man in charge steps in to be the judge and jury. Same goes for the civilian world. What you do is noticed. Even a simple wing wag can get you in hot water:

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1164943.html
 
I think what you're getting at is, how can one type of operation (Red Bull Races)be allowed but not for the average Joe it's considered careless or reckless? Well, one part of the answer s the FAA grants waivers based on the pilot experience involved. Pilots that obtain a low level air show waiver have demonstrated to the FAA that they can do it safely. Are there crashes? Yes but not enough for the FAA to consider it a 91.13 violation. Also, even with something like the Red Bull Races they have restrictions and pilots such as Nigel Lamb (flying too low) and others have been disqualified for violating them.

The second part is the eye of the beholder. I've known pilots in the Army who had their PIC orders pulled for doing something careless or reckless. Even though they didn't violate any flight reg or aircraft operating limitation, the commander who was in charge of them, thought it was unnecessary. Sometimes there's a fine line between flying tactical and flying reckless in the military and that's when the man in charge steps in to be the judge and jury. Same goes for the civilian world. What you do is noticed. Even a simple wing wag can get you in hot water:

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1164943.html

Actually I understand the part about Red Bull, I think Red Bull pilots should be able to fly as low as they want and where ever they want. They clearly have the skills for that.

I also understand about the Army. The equipment is expensive and so is your training, if either the equipment or you becomes inoperative because you were having fun, it's a problem. So I understand how careless or reckless can work in the Army, or military in general.

When your a civilian and paying for your own flying, your free, so you should be able to do whatever you want if your not damaging anything or anyone else. What I am trying to understand is if the FAA actually uses careless or reckless if your not endangering anyone else, and in which case do they enforce it?
Careless or reckless is a point of view, so I'm just trying to understand the FAA's point of view.
 
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What if your hypothetical island is full of livestock. No people or man made objects there. If you buzzed the livestock or tree, that's property. Looks like (a) would apply.

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

Airplanes don't just fall when they lose engines. So if I'm overflying a sheep and I lose an engine, I'm crashing anywhere but into that sheep.
Therefore it's perfectly safe to overfly livestock because if I loose an engine, I have plenty of energy left to glide to the water.

Slightly different scenario; I'm tacking off from an airport that's located in the middle of a populated city. At 400ft I lose an engine and end up in somebody's living room.
Does that qualify as careless or reckless? Because if I would have been smart I would not have flown there in the first place, on the other hand, FAA put the airport there which means I'm allowed to fly into it.
 
Actually I understand the part about Red Bull, I think Red Bull pilots should be able to fly as low as they want and where ever they want. They clearly have the skills for that.

I also understand about the Army. The equipment is expensive and so is your training, if either the equipment or you becomes inoperative because you were having fun, it's a problem. So I understand how careless or reckless can work in the Army, or military in general.

When your a civilian and paying for your own flying, your free, so you should be able to do whatever you want if your not damaging anything or anyone else. What I am trying to understand is if the FAA actually uses careless or reckless if your not endangering anyone else, and in which case do they enforce it?
Careless or reckless is a point of view, so I'm just trying to understand the FAA's point of view.

From Order 2150.3B

11. Analysis of Careless or Reckless Operations. In a case in which FAA investigative
personnel believe a violation of 14 C.F.R. § 91.13 has occurred, they document the factors on
which that determination is based in the statement of case portion of section B of the EIR. FAA
investigative personnel provide a brief explanation of why the conduct was careless or reckless,
and the potential or actual danger involved. For instance, the NTSB has held that potential or
inherent danger occurs when a pilot deviates from an assigned altitude, even in clear weather
with no other aircraft shown to be close by. Such an operation is found to be potentially
dangerous, in that actual danger might have developed in the ordinary course of events. A
finding of actual danger may be appropriate if the altitude deviation caused the aircraft to be
operated so close to another aircraft as to cause a collision hazard.


(3) Careless or reckless conduct. Violations that involve careless or reckless conduct in
violation of 14 C.F.R. § 91.13 may warrant more severe sanctions. Carelessness connotes
conduct that falls below the standard of care or prudence expected of a reasonable person, or
holder of the relevant certificate, acting under the same or similar circumstances. Recklessness
connotes conduct that demonstrates a gross, or even callous or flagrant, disregard for safety.
Aircraft operations that do not otherwise result in a violation of a specific regulation should be
evaluated in light of these standards to determine whether they constitute careless or reckless
operations in violation of 14 C.F.R. § 91.13. When a person operates an aircraft in violation of a
specific regulation other than 14 C.F.R. § 91.13, however, that violation constitutes a careless or
reckless operation in and of itself. In these cases, the misconduct may also result in a violation
of 14 C.F.R. § 91.13 if it actually or potentially endangers the lives or property of others.
When calculating the amount of sanction based on this factor, a distinction generally is drawn
between instances where 14 C.F.R. § 91.13 is an independent violation and those where it is
residual to another violation. When a 14 C.F.R. § 91.13 violation is residual only, a higher
sanction generally is not warranted unless the conduct is also reckless.


 
Everyone always talks about "careless or reckless," even though FAR doesn't specifically say something is illegal if it violates careless or reckless a pilot can lose his certificate.
As the NTSB wrote in an Order some years ago, essentially, "It is neither possible nor necessary for the Administrator to anticipate all possible unsafe acts a pilot might commit and write a regulation against all of them."

Realistically does the FAA ever use §91.13 (careless or reckless) for enforcement purposes?
Yes.
If so, how often?
Based on a review of cases appealed to the NTSB, about 15% all cases.
and does anyone know of any specific case where someone's certificate was suspended or revoked due to violating §91.13?
Again, yes. Go to the NTSB Opinions and Orders web page and search on cases involving 91.13. I get 386 cases in the last 22 years where violation of 91.13 was charged, and those are only the ones appealed all the way to the NTSB.
 
As the NTSB wrote in an Order some years ago, essentially, "It is neither possible nor necessary for the Administrator to anticipate all possible unsafe acts a pilot might commit and write a regulation against all of them."

Yes.
Based on a review of cases appealed to the NTSB, about 15% all cases.
Again, yes. Go to the NTSB Opinions and Orders web page and search on cases involving 91.13. I get 386 cases in the last 22 years where violation of 91.13 was charged, and those are only the ones appealed all the way to the NTSB.


Many of those involve violations of other regulations which support the 91.13 violation. The prior decisions hold that proof of an operational violation satisfies the requirements for a 91.13(a) violation. That being said, they can, and do charge 91.13 violations even with no other "operational violation."

Here is one that they didn't charge any other operational violation.

http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/5625.pdf
 
Airplanes don't just fall when they lose engines. So if I'm overflying a sheep and I lose an engine, I'm crashing anywhere but into that sheep.
Therefore it's perfectly safe to overfly livestock because if I loose an engine, I have plenty of energy left to glide to the water.

...or glide into my into my cows that are grazing in the field before you reach the water.

That's like saying it's perfectly safe to buzz that school in the middle of nowhere because if I lose an engine, I have plenty of places to land without crashing into that school.:nono:

Remember, this is my personal island and I have nothing on it but animals. I'm letting them roam free and I visit once in awhile to check on them. I have no man made objects there and no people;)
 
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Many of those involve violations of other regulations which support the 91.13 violation. The prior decisions hold that proof of an operational violation satisfies the requirements for a 91.13(a) violation. That being said, they can, and do charge 91.13 violations even with no other "operational violation."

Here is one that they didn't charge any other operational violation.

http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/5625.pdf

wow
that's a rather odd case
 
...or glide into my into my cows that are grazing in the field before you reach the water.

That's like saying it's perfectly safe to buzz that school in the middle of nowhere because if I lose an engine, I have plenty of places to land without crashing into that school.:nono:

Remember, this is my personal island and I have nothing on it but animals. I'm letting them roam free and I visit once in awhile to check on them. I have no man made objects there and no people;)

Unless there are miles and miles of cows I really don't see how they are put in danger.
As a pilot you'd want to do as much as possible not to hit the cow, given the size of the cow a direct crash into it can be fatal to the pilot.

Regarding the school comment; you shouldn't buzz a school because you will disturb a whole bunch of people inside. But I don't think it's dangerous in any way. When I was in college we had F-18s buzz the campus every few weeks, no one ever had a problem with it.
 
wow
that's a rather odd case

Some of the enforcement actions I have seen I chalk up to the pilot being an ass-h0le. Treat others with respect, and it's much less likely to come back and bite you. I think this case falls into that category.
 
Some of the enforcement actions I have seen I chalk up to the pilot being an ass-h0le. Treat others with respect, and it's much less likely to come back and bite you. I think this case falls into that category.

If I was the pilot of that 172 I probably wouldn't report it. But if I was the chief pilot of the school and heard one of my pilots complaining about it then I would report it. Either way the guy in the lear was an a**.
 
Unless there are miles and miles of cows I really don't see how they are put in danger.
As a pilot you'd want to do as much as possible not to hit the cow, given the size of the cow a direct crash into it can be fatal to the pilot.

Regarding the school comment; you shouldn't buzz a school because you will disturb a whole bunch of people inside. But I don't think it's dangerous in any way. When I was in college we had F-18s buzz the campus every few weeks, no one ever had a problem with it.

So let me see if I understand you.
My 400' AGL trip under the JFK bravo along the water, (adjacent to the beaches), on my way to the Hudson SFRA is 'incredibly dangerous', but here you're justifying buzzing cows, sheep and school houses:rolleyes2:
 
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