Career Pilot.....Counting the cost

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rtbayne01072

Filing Flight Plan
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flyboy72
Ok so I know this post probably belongs in "Pilot Training" but I really wanted to get this out on this forum because I feel like more people look at this Forum, and I really want some opinions from people who have been in the aviation world for a bit. (hang with me its going to be a long post).

So I'm a college student, who is going to graduate the University of South Carolina in May with a physical Education degree. However I've always had a interest in flying my great grandfather flew in WW2 and me and my dad have been going to airshows and have shared an interest for aviation. So long story short flying is something I've always wanted to do.

So this past summer I finally acted on my passion and went on an introductory flight at my local FBO. I loved it I felt like the controlling the plane kinda came natural to me, and I decided to pursue my PPL. I've haven't be able to go up too much more since then between classes and money, but I have about 6.5 hours on my log now.

So here is my thought process, If I had it my way after I graduate I would go to a bigger flight School like aerosim or ATP and get all my ratings and try to pursue going to fly for the big boys (airline,freight or corporate).

Of Course I did my research and found out that it is a very expensive route and that there is no guarantees that I will get on with an airline (even a regional). I also will have student loans payments when i get out of college in may as well. If I could hold down some sort of part time job to so I can make loan payments this route might be possible but I doubt this will be possible.


So my thought process now is I will still Keep doing my training through my FBO and try to get a teaching job, and try to use my summers to dedicate to my flight training.

I would love flying for the airlines but I also wouldn't mind flying corporate as well.


I guess the biggest questions is this.

1. Is the big flight Schools like ATP or aeroism worth the money?
(my biggest draw to them is I saw they can get you 100 hours of multi experience)

2.If anyone has went through the bigger flight schools such (as ATP, Aerosim etc.) could you tell me about your experience and would you do it again?

3.If I decide to go the route of doing my training through my local FBO, where do I go to get my mutli-training done? (My local FBO only offers PPL insturment, and commercial)

4. Or is there other ways of doing pilot training that I have not thought of?


I know that the aviation industry is a hard and expensive one to get into. I know the training and flying in general is not easy and stressful at times. But the feeling that I get when I'm behind the controls of an airplane outweighs this and a really want to fly. I also don't want life to get in the way of me pursuing this (i guess that more of a personal issue). So any wisdom or advise anyone could share with me would help.

all I want to do is get paid to fly is that too much to ask. :dunno:


Thanks!!
 
Unfortunately most of what you are about to get here is vitriol and not much use. I would suggest going over to the professional pilots boards and inquiring.
 
I know a number of people who sat in the latest classes for a couple local regionals who didn't have a Big Aviation School(TM) pedigree, and some who did.

Some passed and went on to IOE, others flunked out.

Getting to the initial classroom didn't have anything to do with where they went to school.
 
If you really want the aviation career, you need to find $25k somewhere to buy a cheap plane and fund flying it for a year; hopefully :D. The cost is variable depending on how well you buy and a bit of luck, but figure you can buy a $12k basic IFR plane and have $13k left over. If you figure a 2 seat trainer using 6 GPH you should be able to operate it for over 260 hrs, that gets you most of what you need to get your Flight Instructor rating. With that and a 2 seat trainer, you are now in business for yourself building time and operating your plane on someone else's dime. You want to do this while you are still in college so you come out of college with your degree and 1500hrs along with an ATP and your college job was as a flight instructor and business owner. Now you are set up with a well above average resume for someone getting into the aviation business out of school. If you are at a school with an A&P program, most definitely take, it will substantially reduce your cost of ownership/operations and open more future opportunities.

If you can add an Apache or Travelair to your flight school, that will help you as well.
 
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Dang Henning. He does not have the time or money to fly now. He graduates in May with a degree in PE with student debt already hanging over him. He will have no job, no money, student loan debt and you want him to buy an airplane, really? You think the imaginary $13K he has borrowed will get him private, instrument, commercial, CFI, fuel, insurance, tie down, maintenance? If by some miracle that happened just how much money will he make instructing? Could he even make the payments on the $25K?
If the OP could get some kind of a job after graduation he might be able to make loan payments, food and shelter AND pursue his PPL at the local FBO. By the time he gets his PPL he may come to his senses and go back for a marketable degree in something.
I do hope there is somebody on here that give some usable, positive advice. The OP is looking at a long hard road with tens of thousands of dollars in debt to get his foot in the door for a job that might pay $25K a year five years down the road. It can and is done. I hope some of the younger guys under 30 years old that is flying corporate or regional will weigh in with some advice.
 
ronnieh said:
I hope some of the younger guys under 30 years old that is flying corporate or regional will weigh in with some advice.
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Well I'm not in the under 30 crowd anymore, but I've flown for a regional and am now flying corporate.

To the OP, you've flown 6.5 hours since last summer? That's not going to get you anywhere very quick. I understand money is short, but I would recommend saving until you have enough to knock out your PPL in a condensed period of time. Flying once a month - it's going to take you 2 or 3 times as long to complete, if you do.

I graduated with an other than aviation degree and student loans. I worked as much as possible in a variety of part time jobs while in school to pay for my flying. Why is it you don't think you will be able to hold a job after you graduate?

To answer your questions
1) IMO, no.
2) I did all my training with part 61 schools. You may not be able to do it in your town - I had to drive 80 miles one way to get to an airport to do my instrument and commercial training. In order to do my CFI and Multi, I had to go to Dallas over Christmas break which was a 4.5 hour drive.
3) see above. Look around at nearby airports. I found a guy doing a 3 day multi course for about $1000, and then found an FBO closer that I got dual in until I got to the required insurance mins to instruct in it.
4) I'm sure others will have some ideas.

Other ways to build time after you get your initial training done, rather than just paying for it - Banner towing, air tours, pipeline patrol, ferry flights, flight instruction... Then as you progress there is part 135 freight, which is a great way to build twin time and get you in the door for an interview with a regional.

Also look to see if there are any local aviation groups at your airport that have regular meetings, such as this group - https://scaaonline.com/. They also have scholarships.

If you want to get into corporate, the key is networking. It's about who you know (and what you know). Almost all the jobs at the good flight departments are filled by internal recommendations.

Whatever route you choose, I highly recommend figuring out how to do it without acquiring more debt! I think I read somewhere that the average time between starting to fly and getting your first 'real' job is 7 years. It took me 5. That's a long time eating Ramen and hotdogs.
 
ronnieh said:
Dang Henning. He does not have the time or money to fly now. He graduates in May with a degree in PE with student debt already hanging over him. He will have no job, no money, student loan debt and you want him to buy an airplane, really? You think the imaginary $13K he has borrowed will get him private, instrument, commercial, CFI, fuel, insurance, tie down, maintenance? If by some miracle that happened just how much money will he make instructing? Could he even make the payments on the $25K?
If the OP could get some kind of a job after graduation he might be able to make loan payments, food and shelter AND pursue his PPL at the local FBO. By the time he gets his PPL he may come to his senses and go back for a marketable degree in something.
I do hope there is somebody on here that give some usable, positive advice. The OP is looking at a long hard road with tens of thousands of dollars in debt to get his foot in the door for a job that might pay $25K a year five years down the road. It can and is done. I hope some of the younger guys under 30 years old that is flying corporate or regional will weigh in with some advice.
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I said find $25k, I didn't say go to the bank and borrow it, there's more ways to get money than a bank. I missed that he was graduating in May. AllATPs is one way to go, but it will be an expensive one. Going the traditional route of Pt 61 training I still think buying the plane would be advantageous.

It's going to cost ****loads of money, so if there is no way to find the money to fly, it is then impossible to have a career in aviation without going through the military, so perhaps that is what he should try. If he just got a degree in PE he should be good on the PT test. Probably late for ROTC but ask the counselor about OCS options.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Unfortunately most of what you are about to get here is vitriol and not much use. I would suggest going over to the professional pilots boards and inquiring.
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Because PPRUNE and jetcareers is that much better eh :rofl:

To the OP, ATP inc is not only expensive, it's crap education.

Find someone else who wants to go the same route and shotgun hours in the cheapest 150 you can find, or go partners in one (just be sure you have someone who knows aviation help you in this).

Find a freelance CFI, ATP/Gold Seal CFI who is also a 135, 91 or 137 working pilot with a good personality and teaching style would be the ideal combo.

Moving to somewhere with a good glider club and building hours that is also a good move.

As for the military, they ain't exactly handing out pilot slots, nor do they fly as much as their civilian counterparts, national guard would be your best bet, just be OK with the mission, ie serving special interests over the American people and killin folks etc.
 
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Get private-instrument-commercial and then CFI, work for a local flight school for a little while and get your CMEL and MEI. This can be done without going to college for it however you do need that 4 year college degree to get on with a major. Preferrably go collegiate aviation. That way you knock out your degree and you get your ratings. Apply and get hired at a regional, sit right seat for around 5 years or so and upgrade to PIC left seat, get your turbine time there and hopefully the next step would be a major.
 
They've been selling that smooth story for decades. Pilot shortage right around the corner?
Ryanb said:
Get private-instrument-commercial and then CFI, work for a local flight school for a little while and get your CMEL and MEI. This can be done without going to college for it however you do need that 4 year college degree to get on with a major. Preferrably go collegiate aviation. That way you knock out your degree and you get your ratings. Apply and get hired at a regional, sit right seat for around 5 years or so and upgrade to PIC left seat, get your turbine time there and hopefully the next step would be a major.
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Also as far as getting your multi if you go through your local fbo. Get as far as a CFI there and build time instructing. Chances are there is an ATP or some school fairly close to you. You could stay at a location for a week or so and get your multi. Biggest thing then is you would need time in it not just a MEL rating. Plus a MEI looks good too. Best bet IMO is to start collegiate and get it all done at once.
 
ClimbnSink said:
They've been selling that smooth story for decades. Pilot shortage right around the corner?
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I know if only it was as easy as it sounds. Regional hiring seems pretty good right now and i think a shortage would play an advantage for new grads getting hired. Lets hope!
 
Ryanb said:
I know if only it was as easy as it sounds. Regional hiring seems pretty good right now and i think a shortage would play an advantage for new grads getting hired. Lets hope!
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How many new grads have 1500hrs with 200ME?
 
Henning said:
How many new grads have 1500hrs with 200ME?
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I mean hiring seems good for people who have the time. I know its a general answer. Correct me if im wrong but it does seem like collegiate aviation or ATP is the best route to get ratings.
 
Ryanb said:
I mean hiring seems good for people who have the time. I know its a general answer. Correct me if im wrong but it does seem like collegiate aviation or ATP is the best route to get ratings.
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They get the ratings but are in crazy debt. I'm about to get all the ratings that a guy from Riddle would get but I'm not graduating with any debt and I have a useful degree.
 
DavidWhite said:
regionals are hiring guys with practically no multi-time. Ameriflight is taking guys with 1200TT and a wet multi.
Click to expand...

I definetly feel like there is a shortage. Just really wish that whole Colgan accident never happened, so there was no ATP hiring minimum and just a CMEL etc. like it used to be. I know its great from a safety perspective but from a pilot trying to get hired its definetly more work.
 
jordane93 said:
They get the ratings but are in crazy debt. I'm about to get all the ratings that a guy from Riddle would get but I'm not graduating with any debt and I have a useful degree.
Click to expand...

What path are you taking?
 
James331 said:
Because PPRUNE and jetcareers is that much better eh :rofl:
Click to expand...

Maybe that's what you would use. :rolleyes2: Actually there are others.



James331 said:
Find a freelance CFI, ATP/Gold Seal CFI who is also a 135, 91 or 137 working pilot with a good personality and teaching style would be the ideal combo.
Click to expand...

So what about a 121 guy? :rolleyes:
 
Ryanb said:
What path are you taking?
Click to expand...
Going to a 4 year school, getting a non aviation degree, and flying on the side. I'm working on my CFI and I hope to take the checkride and start teaching before Spring semester.
 
Are the big schools worth the money? The jury is out. I did the pay as you go at the local airport back in 85-86. I have known people that used these schools. It is a lot of money, but so is flying 250 hrs at your local airport. The big schools are mills. The good news is that most will let you instruct as a graduate. This allows you to have a built in clientele. Look at several, ask the grads.

If your local FBO doesn't offer multi engine training, you'll have to find one that does. The next question is how do you plan to build multi time?

The only other idea would be the military or maybe some missionary pilot school. No experience in either area.

Keep in mind that you will not make enough money to pay living expenses and student loan debt for several/many years. Keep this in mind as you think through your plans.

Most professional pilot boards will be very negative. Mostly for good reasons. No need to post and make yourself a target. Just read the posts, keeping in mind that happy, positive people don't make long posts on Internet forums. On the other hand, enter the career with your eyes wide open. I have had people tell me the funniest things about the industry I work in. Just like in flying, hope for the best, but keep an emergency landing spot in sight at all times.




rtbayne01072 said:
Ok so I know this post probably belongs in "Pilot Training" but I really wanted to get this out on this forum because I feel like more people look at this Forum, and I really want some opinions from people who have been in the aviation world for a bit. (hang with me its going to be a long post).

So I'm a college student, who is going to graduate the University of South Carolina in May with a physical Education degree. However I've always had a interest in flying my great grandfather flew in WW2 and me and my dad have been going to airshows and have shared an interest for aviation. So long story short flying is something I've always wanted to do.

So this past summer I finally acted on my passion and went on an introductory flight at my local FBO. I loved it I felt like the controlling the plane kinda came natural to me, and I decided to pursue my PPL. I've haven't be able to go up too much more since then between classes and money, but I have about 6.5 hours on my log now.

So here is my thought process, If I had it my way after I graduate I would go to a bigger flight School like aerosim or ATP and get all my ratings and try to pursue going to fly for the big boys (airline,freight or corporate).

Of Course I did my research and found out that it is a very expensive route and that there is no guarantees that I will get on with an airline (even a regional). I also will have student loans payments when i get out of college in may as well. If I could hold down some sort of part time job to so I can make loan payments this route might be possible but I doubt this will be possible.

So my thought process now is I will still Keep doing my training through my FBO and try to get a teaching job, and try to use my summers to dedicate to my flight training.

I would love flying for the airlines but I also wouldn't mind flying corporate as well.


I guess the biggest questions is this.

1. Is the big flight Schools like ATP or aeroism worth the money?
(my biggest draw to them is I saw they can get you 100 hours of multi experience)

2.If anyone has went through the bigger flight schools such (as ATP, Aerosim etc.) could you tell me about your experience and would you do it again?

3.If I decide to go the route of doing my training through my local FBO, where do I go to get my mutli-training done? (My local FBO only offers PPL insturment, and commercial)

4. Or is there other ways of doing pilot training that I have not thought of?


I know that the aviation industry is a hard and expensive one to get into. I know the training and flying in general is not easy and stressful at times. But the feeling that I get when I'm behind the controls of an airplane outweighs this and a really want to fly. I also don't want life to get in the way of me pursuing this (i guess that more of a personal issue). So any wisdom or advise anyone could share with me would help.

all I want to do is get paid to fly is that too much to ask. :dunno:


Thanks!!
Click to expand...
 
Well the United States Navy and Marine Corps paid for mine but I guess kids today are just to cool for that.
 
DavidWhite said:
regionals are hiring guys with practically no multi-time. Ameriflight is taking guys with 1200TT and a wet multi.
Click to expand...

I worked at Ameriflight. It helped make me the pilot I am today. The problem with AMF is that you have to have 135 minimums. Fog a mirror and you can be working at a regional with 1500. It just doesn't make sense to me to go to AMF. Most have found that they still needed to go to a regional after Ameriflight.
 
Ryanb said:
I definetly feel like there is a shortage. Just really wish that whole Colgan accident never happened, so there was no ATP hiring minimum and just a CMEL etc. like it used to be. I know its great from a safety perspective but from a pilot trying to get hired its definetly more work.
Click to expand...

There is only a shortage of pilots for low pay, entry level jobs. The majors have said this in congressional testimony. What they are concerned about is filling regional cockpits. Today's spin is that if only regional captains didn't hog the money, the poor regional managers could pay the first officers more. There are 70,000 ATP rated pilots not working for a 121 airlines. If the regionals paid more, the applications would come. The rumor mill has PSA hiring street captains next year. This is in part because of the upgrade requirements of the new experience regulations. I bet they will have no problem filling those slots, because of the higher starting pay.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
I worked at Ameriflight. It helped make me the pilot I am today. The problem with AMF is that you have to have 135 minimums. Fog a mirror and you can be working at a regional with 1500. It just doesn't make sense to me to go to AMF. Most have found that they still needed to go to a regional after Ameriflight.
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3 years at AMF and you're a 1900 captain and making 65-70k/yr and you don't have to fly people. The Albuquerque base is mostly out & backs.

Ameriflight could also be a stepping stone to a lot of 135 and 91 corporate jobs.
 
ronnieh said:
Dang Henning. He does not have the time or money to fly now. He graduates in May with a degree in PE with student debt already hanging over him. He will have no job, no money, student loan debt and you want him to buy an airplane, really? You think the imaginary $13K he has borrowed will get him private, instrument, commercial, CFI, fuel, insurance, tie down, maintenance? If by some miracle that happened just how much money will he make instructing? Could he even make the payments on the $25K?
If the OP could get some kind of a job after graduation he might be able to make loan payments, food and shelter AND pursue his PPL at the local FBO. By the time he gets his PPL he may come to his senses and go back for a marketable degree in something.
I do hope there is somebody on here that give some usable, positive advice. The OP is looking at a long hard road with tens of thousands of dollars in debt to get his foot in the door for a job that might pay $25K a year five years down the road. It can and is done. I hope some of the younger guys under 30 years old that is flying corporate or regional will weigh in with some advice.
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I totally agree with Henning. I went to college and decided later I wanted to be a pilot. I worked and paid my flight training as I went. Now I have what's left of my student loans (from former degree) I paid every dime of flight training and don't owe a penny from it. I'm 6-10 months of being completely debt free and am a commercial pilot. I owe the fact that I was able to partner in a plane as to why I have been so successful. I fly with many people paying off their big flight loans and it makes me feel good. I can afford anything I want on the same salary because I owe zero to flight training. I have money in the bank because I didn't just jump in to a $75k flight program on top of my student loans. YMMV though.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
There is only a shortage of pilots for low pay, entry level jobs. The majors have said this in congressional testimony. What they are concerned about is filling regional cockpits. Today's spin is that if only regional captains didn't hog the money, the poor regional managers could pay the first officers more. There are 70,000 ATP rated pilots not working for a 121 airlines. If the regionals paid more, the applications would come. The rumor mill has PSA hiring street captains next year. This is in part because of the upgrade requirements of the new experience regulations. I bet they will have no problem filling those slots, because of the higher starting pay.
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Totally, if they just step up the bar a little bit they will get more pilots to fly. They have to know this. I feel like "eventually" regionals will have to upgrade pay in order to survive. Competing atleast somewhat to majors and pilots may make the regionals a career instead of a stepping stone
 
DavidWhite said:
3 years at AMF and you're a 1900 captain and making 65-70k/yr and you don't have to fly people. The Albuquerque base is mostly out & backs.

Ameriflight could also be a stepping stone to a lot of 135 and 91 corporate jobs.
Click to expand...

The money has gotten better at Ameriflight, but I don't think its quite that good. I've been told this was the lastest pay scales. I've been out of the loop for a long time. Your info might be better than mine. Keep in mind that there is little to no per diem paid too.

There is one thing that I will always give Ameriflight a big thumbs up for. It is the only place where I worked that still is in business after all of these years. That does say something.
 

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A route a lot of people don't think of is the Air Force Reserve or the Air National Guard. Spend about 2 years(paid) going to officer training school(10 weeks) then flight training(about 1.5 years) come out of there with a commercial single engine, multi-engine, instrument rating, beechjet type rating(if you go the cargo/tanker route). Train on your specific airplane. Then get to go fly for your unit. Fly about one weekend a month. A lot don't even live near their unit so they airline it(i believe the guard/reserve pays for it.

Pretty sweet deal for those that don't really want to do the "full military" thing. The vast majority of reserve/guard pilots are airline pilots during the week. They have normal jobs, normal families, most never deploy. Just deployed with a bunch of reserve pilots and they said they had been trying for over a year to deploy to the desert, where I am forced to go almost every 2-3 months. They get all the awesome stateside trips such as airshows and media flights. If I knew then what I knew now, I probably would have still got my private pilot license and instrument rating in high school(having that when you apply to the guard/reserve puts you at a HUGE advantage), still gotten a business degree, and applied to some guard units. I was under the impression that those guys all had masters degrees in some type of engineering and looked amazing on paper. That is certainly not the case after meeting the guard/reserve guys in my pilot training class. Most of them flat out said that they don't really want to do the military thing, it was just a cheap, fast track to the airlines. Hey if thats the way they want to do it, by all means.

I was worried about the interview but those vary by unit. Most of them are just to see if you would be fun to fly with. College classmate said his first interview question was, "You have a cold PBR and a warm Coors Light...Which one do you drink?" His response..."Both" Needless to say he got hired.

You'd get to go to some pretty cool places if you go the heavy route or do some amazing things with an airplane if you go the fighter route. With the Guard/Reserve you are already hired by a unit, so you know exactly what plane you are flying before you even start training. You aren't competing with your class for a certain airplane like the active duty guys. And unlike active duty, if for some reason you don't pass the medical or training, you have no obligation to do some desk job like the active duty guys do. You would either be a pilot or not in the Guard/Reserve. Pretty sweet deal if you ask me.

If you have any questions about it feel free to ask me.
 
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