Career advice

david0tey

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I realize it is ultimately up to me to decide what I want to do with my life but I am looking for some good advice on what I should do after college. The most important thing for me is a career in the aviation field. I have made my peace with the fact that I won't be making the big bucks in any of the scenarios that I have thought up. Currently, I'm a junior in college at a liberal arts university (bad idea). I have my private and am working towards my instrument. Here are the two ideas I have come up with for my post graduate life:

1. Go to ATP flight school and knock out the rest of my ratings, become a CFI, and build time until I can land a halfway decent airline or corporate job.

2. Put my pilot aspirations on hold and attend a 2 year ATC program. Hopefully get an ATC job and then finish my ratings on the side.

If anybody has a better idea than the ones I have mentioned, lets hear it. I want to be a pilot so damn bad but achieving that goal seems so out of reach at times, especially with the **** poor pay that airline pilots get these days.
 
After college, join the United States Air Force. You'll get all the experience/hours you can handle at no cost, along with a decent paycheck.
 
After college, join the United States Air Force. You'll get all the experience/hours you can handle at no cost, along with a decent paycheck.

You beat me to it. USAF or any of the air wings of any of the services.
 
Think hard about the type of flying you want to do. I know a few ex and current line pilots who find it is akin to driving a bus with a view. There is a lot of uncertainty in employment security, and in the first few years you are subjected to harsh hours and living conditions for little pay.

If the military is your choice you will get first rate training, fly, (depending on your branch), some cutting edge technology and make a decent living with good retirement if you choose to stay for a career.

If you just want to fly for fun, go the ATC route, make a decent living with good retirement and have regular hours and the ability to own and fly a nice GA plane.

Just my two cents.
 
After college, join the United States Air Force. You'll get all the experience/hours you can handle at no cost, along with a decent paycheck.

This would be a no-brainer for me if I was sure I would be able to fly. I feel like the Air Force wouldn't be too happy about me saying I would only join if I could be a pilot. Not everyone who wants to fly in the Air Force gets that option, I wouldn't think.
 
Your liberal arts college is irrelevant. While a degree is a competitive tool, it's not necessary for a flying career (albeit useful), and very few care about the discipline of your degree.

A degree in professional flight is no more useful or relevant to a flying career than one in underwater basket weaving. The main thing for you is that you'll have a degree.

The route to the paid cockpit is long and doesn't pay well. Your route to the airlines will soon be restricted to needing 1500 hours and and an ATP. No more 300 hour wonders in the airline cockpit.

Flight instructing is still one of the best avenues to experience for your early flying career. The hardest part of flying is paying for it, and you'll need to pay your way to the flight instructor certificate. Hopefully after that you'll have someone willing to pay you to do the flying, and once you have a little experience under your belt at that point, you can begin to choose a path.

If you simply want to do something in aviation and don't care if you fly or do something else, then you have a lot of choices. Aviation maintenance, flying, air traffic control, engineering, research, sales, unmanned technology, and a host of other directions are available to you.

The military is an option, an excellent career choice, and pays well compared to a civil counterposition. You won't be building a lot of hours, but if you're pursuing a career, that doesn't really matter.

You already have your private certificate. That's a good start. You can certainly go to a flight school to get more certification and ratings, but you're going to have to get hired; pick a place that will hire you or have an avenue to getting hired after your get your training. There is no shortage of people wanting jobs; getting the job is the tricky part, and having the basic qualifications doesn't make you competitive. Often flight schools prefer to use their own students first, when filling instructor positions. If you choose a busy flight school where you can do a lot of flying and where you stand a good chance of being hired after your training, so much the better.

Bear in mind that your student loans may impose a significant burden on you while trying to get your career off the ground. Flight instruction tends to pay starvation wages, as do most entry level (and many mid level) jobs in aviation. You will quite possibly need a second job; I worked two jobs for many years to make ends meet.

One doesn't generally instruct until one can go to a corporate department. You'll usually need to graduate to a 135 operation doing night freight or charter, or work your way up. Going to the airlines does give you an avenue to a career, but the airlines for which you'll be qualified pay peanuts and don't foster a long-term attitude. They're stepping stones, as not many people stay there for the long term. If you've gained all your experience with a regional airline, you'll be a cookie cutter resume that's just like any other; not very competitive, and you'll have the "airline stink." That's the thing that comes with having worked for an airline. Charter and corporate departments don't want to touch you. That's often the case for former airline or military; it can work against you when looking for various private sector jobs.

Conversely, some avenues value that kind of a flying background. Certain government contractors put a premium on military experience. A few airlines thrive on former military (Delta, FedEx, etc). Many do not. Some don't care. The same isn't true when moving to a corporate position.

You usually don't get to be too choosy when building your career. Like the old saying that beggars can't be choosers, as a burgeoning pilot (which you'll be for the first ten to fifteen years) you'll be the beggar. Take what you can find, then take what you can find next.

Much of that you worry about as it happens. You can't plan for the next job years down the line in aviation. The company may not even be in business. Concentrate on what you're doing right now, have a general game plan with a dozen back-ups, and you'll be set to embark on a career in aviation. Right now, concentrate on training with an eye to your first job. Find training that will get you employed. Once you're employed, begin looking for the next step.

Aviation hiring runs in five year cycles. Every five years we hit a high or a low, roughly speaking. If you're hitting a high point where jobs are plentiful and hiring is fast and furious, pick your poison, grab the best job you can, and hang on. If you're completing your training at a low point in the hiring cycle, then hang on to your job and wait it out, or move to a new position very carefully.

One step at a time, and take it slowly. Don't get too far in debt. Aviation doesn't provide the means to crawl out of too deep a hole, especially in the first decade or so. Take your time, be patient. It's a long road, but if it's really what you want, then it's worth the effort.
 
This would be a no-brainer for me if I was sure I would be able to fly. I feel like the Air Force wouldn't be too happy about me saying I would only join if I could be a pilot. Not everyone who wants to fly in the Air Force gets that option, I wouldn't think.

Navy gives you a better option, and you could try to get a slot in the Naval Academy, which would increase your odds. But ultimately, they'll tell you whatever you want to hear to get you to sign on the line. Then they've got you for years.

ATC will probably pay better than being a pilot for a lot of your career. Lets you stay within aviation without going far from home. Plus, government jobs have their definite advantages.

Jack is correct that you need to think about what kind of flying you want to do. If you want to do personal flying for fun, then you need to think about what kind of plane you want to fly, and then find a job that will allow you to afford that. If you want to fly for a mission (i.e. for someone else), then there are different paths to go down. ATP I think produces low-quality pilots for high-quality pricing. But if you go to them then they may also hire you as a CFI, and give you their students so you can build hours quickly. Then you head off to the regionals, go from there.

There are other options, too - become a Part 61 instructor, work for a different 141 school, then start flying charters. I think this route provides better learning, but seems to be the way that nobody goes anymore.
 
Navy gives you a better option, and you could try to get a slot in the Naval Academy, which would increase your odds. But ultimately, they'll tell you whatever you want to hear to get you to sign on the line. Then they've got you for years.

ATC will probably pay better than being a pilot for a lot of your career. Lets you stay within aviation without going far from home. Plus, government jobs have their definite advantages.

Jack is correct that you need to think about what kind of flying you want to do. If you want to do personal flying for fun, then you need to think about what kind of plane you want to fly, and then find a job that will allow you to afford that. If you want to fly for a mission (i.e. for someone else), then there are different paths to go down. ATP I think produces low-quality pilots for high-quality pricing. But if you go to them then they may also hire you as a CFI, and give you their students so you can build hours quickly. Then you head off to the regionals, go from there.

There are other options, too - become a Part 61 instructor, work for a different 141 school, then start flying charters. I think this route provides better learning, but seems to be the way that nobody goes anymore.

Can you get a slot in the Naval Academy after you have already graduated college? Is there not just a program I can apply for to get me into Navy, Air Force, or National Guard flight? Of course there isn't, that would be way too simple. :mad2:
 
Can you get a slot in the Naval Academy after you have already graduated college? Is there not just a program I can apply for to get me into Navy, Air Force, or National Guard flight? Of course there isn't, that would be way too simple. :mad2:

I'm no military expert. That said, I do know of at least one person who, while in college, got a slot in the Naval Academy and transferred to it. Got a great education and a pilot slot. Not a bad deal - wish I'd thought to do that when I was college age.
 
Can you get a slot in the Naval Academy after you have already graduated college? Is there not just a program I can apply for to get me into Navy, Air Force, or National Guard flight? Of course there isn't, that would be way too simple. :mad2:

Academy's do not accept college graduates...visit your local recruiter...they are in the phone book. Joining the local ANG unit is like pledging a fraternity...just keep visiting till they hire you or tell you to go away.
 
Can you get a slot in the Naval Academy after you have already graduated college? Is there not just a program I can apply for to get me into Navy, Air Force, or National Guard flight? Of course there isn't, that would be way too simple. :mad2:
FAQ here.

http://www.usna.edu/admissions/faq.htm#eligible

Do you accept transfer students?

Yes and no. We do accept students from other colleges as long as they meet our age requirements, but they still have to attend the Academy for four years.
 
I'm no military expert. That said, I do know of at least one person who, while in college, got a slot in the Naval Academy and transferred to it. Got a great education and a pilot slot. Not a bad deal - wish I'd thought to do that when I was college age.

Also, when you say to start flying charters. Is there some specific place to look for charter or corporate jobs? One of my flight instructors told me you just need to be in the right place at the right time.
 
Also, when you say to start flying charters. Is there some specific place to look for charter or corporate jobs? One of my flight instructors told me you just need to be in the right place at the right time.

Networking: number 1 way to get a job.

Go talk to people and put yourself out there.
 
Also, when you say to start flying charters. Is there some specific place to look for charter or corporate jobs? One of my flight instructors told me you just need to be in the right place at the right time.

Not to say that the same conditions exist today, but....

the large (five branches) flight school where I did my first serious instructing had a kind of firewall between the flight school and the charter department...no student ever missed a lesson because his/her instructor was out on a charter. I was instructing in twins before the powers-that-be decided that they would put me on the 135 certificate...took several years before I left the flight school arena entirely. Hard to imagine someone walking in off the street and getting a charter/corporate job.

Bob Gardner
 
Also, when you say to start flying charters. Is there some specific place to look for charter or corporate jobs? One of my flight instructors told me you just need to be in the right place at the right time.

David,

While it's true of most jobs in aviation, in fact most jobs you'll work in your career that it's about being in the right place at the right time, there are things you can do to put yourself in the right place at the right time.

First, you need to be qualified for the job. For a charter job, you'll need Part 135 minimums (500 hours for VFR, 1200 for IFR). You'll also need to meet the minimums for the company to whom you're applying. That means that if the company tells you or advertises that they want 1,500 hours minimum, that's the bare essential to apply.

You'll also need to meet competitive minimums. These numbers aren't published; they're what you'll need to compete with everyone else applying for the same job. If the job advertises 1,500 hours minimum, but everyone else applying for the job has the same qualifications as you and 3,000 hours flying time, you will need at least that much to compete. These are the competitive minimums.

There are many online places that cite pilot jobs. You can subscribe to number of sources, some of which are free, some of which require a monthly or yearly fee. I've found work on a number of those sites and places, from Trade A Plane to Air Jobs Digest. I got my first jet job, in fact, from an ad in Trade A Plane. I've been hired off Ag Air Update when looking for ag or fire jobs. I've been hired off professional sites for charter, aeromedical, fractional, or other such jobs. I've attended job fairs and been hired; that was what got me in the door at an international operation.

One of the best sources for the burgeoning flight instructor, one of the best books on the subject in my opinion, is called The Savvy Flight Instructor, by Greg Brown. It's been out for some time now. I spoke with the author years ago, and found him helpful and informative; I'd recommend his book to anyone considering instructing for a living. It's not just about instructing, but more of a manual jam-packed with good counsel for someone looking to expand their career, find students, become a better instructor, meet others, expand their horizons, plan for the next step, or even to plan to stay with instructing. I don't know the author and have nothing to do with the book, but I heartily recommend it to everyone who instructs.

You're not likely to simply wander out there and find a corporate job. Corporate jobs are generally not entry level jobs. Smaller airlines and airlines flying smaller equipment tend to hire inexperienced pilots; these are entry-level jobs. Corporations tend to put their most valued employees, and their personnel with the greatest net worth (as well as clients) in their corporate aircraft. One client in a corporate aircraft may have a greater net worth than an entire airliner full of passengers. Corporations tend to be a lot more selective in who they hire and the qualifications that belong that that new hire.

Charter jobs are a little easier, in general. You might try a company like Flight Express for a first charter job; they fly Barons and Cessna 210's doing a lot of freight, often at night, often in bad weather. You'd start out in the 210 and move to the Baron eventually. Long hours, longs of standby and waiting, poor wages, but good training, demanding work, and you'd get a lot of flight experience in a short time. Such jobs are found all over the USA.

Many times an in-person visit to drop off your resume is a good way to be remembered. Not a fax or email; not even in an envelope, but a good cover letter with a professional resume, hand delivered, means more to many employers (especially in charter and utility flying) than an impersonal one with a stamp or an electronic address.

I've been hired before simply because I was the guy standing in front of the Chief Pilot's desk when he needed someone.

The squeaky wheel does often get the grease.

Get to know people. Get a reputation for reliability, professionalism, sincerity. Get to be known as someone who takes the job seriously, who doesn't engage in wild behavior, who is trustworthy. Make sure you don't get speeding tickets, don't drive drunk, don't act like a kid. Be there, be dedicated, show up, and work hard. These aren't simply truisms. They work.

Civil Air Patrol is a way to meet other pilots and to get some flying experience, to interact with others and to become known. EAA is another. Sites like this might be such a way.

I've never had a job because someone else got it for me, or because I knew someone else. I don't work like that. I don't network, and I got where I've been not because I dropped a name. That said, many in the business do network, and some will tell you that it's not what you know, but whom. I don't agree entirely, but there's a lot to be said for getting to know others in the circles in which you hope to travel.

I've been working with a young man recently who took a little different path to start his flying. I just worked to get him checked out in an Air Tractor 802. He's very low-time: badly 1,500 hours. His background is nearly all conventional gear (tailwheel). He was a glider instructor and performed international glider aerobatics and competition. He's quite humble. He holds an advanced degree in aeronautical engineering, and is a mechanic and inspector. He's willing to get dirty and work hard. He's sincere. The owner of the airplane was willing to take a big chance on the young man because of the impression the young man made. It's very unusual to have someone like that in that airplane; it's a big step, but he's capable, and he's available, and the path he chose, while not the one more travelled, has put him in the position to do this.

His isn't a corporate path; he has a utility flying background, and is proceeding in the right vein to continue doing that. He's getting some excellent experience and qualification presently, and in my view, is doing it right, and doing it well. Being inexperienced doesn't necessarily mean confined to only flight instructing. There are many avenues to where you might want to be; there are different paths depending on what you intend to do. Mine very early on was utility agricultural, much like this young man; it's what I did right out of high school, and it's a presence I'e maintained or continued throughout my life, regardless of what other flying or jobs I've done. It's also kept me employed at times when other jobs weren't available.

Don't neglect openings that are off the beaten track. You might find your first job flying pipeline patrol or dropping jumpers at the local drop zone, or flying banners or doing traffic watch for the local radio or television station. It might be flight instructing, or spotting fish, or flying fire patrol for the state. There are many different avenues. Gain as much qualification as you can, and get as broad a background of experience as you can.

I've always encouraged burgeoning pilots to get a maintenance background; some do, not many. I did, and don't regret it a bit. It's served me well, and has been the ticket to a number of different employers. It's also kept me alive.

Concentrate for now on learning everything you can, and on your studies. Pick up Greg Brown's book and read it with some thought to how you can apply it to your choices. Talk to instructors, working pilots. Visit a control tower, and tal with the controllers. Visit maintenance shops, and speak with the mechanics. Interview a Director of Maintenance or two; get a feel for what's out there. See if you can ride along on a freight charter somewhere; find out what's involved. You're doing the right thing to be asking a lot of questions now; don't stop asking, and don't stop examining all the avenues that may be open to you.

If you feel that the military is your door, then don't just talk to the recruiters. They'll lie to you without any remorse. Talk to those on the job. Speak with military aviators. Talk to aviators in different branches. Talk to helicopter pilots in the army and coast guard, talk to transport pilots in the military airlift command in the air force. Talk to naval aviators and coast guard pilots. Find out what they like, dislike and their advice and recommendations for each of the different avenues to where you'd like to be (academies, OCS, WOFT, etc).

Keep plugging away. You'll find what you're after.
 
Also, when you say to start flying charters. Is there some specific place to look for charter or corporate jobs? One of my flight instructors told me you just need to be in the right place at the right time.

He's more or less accurate. The big thing that I'd shoot for is to have quality flight time rather than quantity. To give you an example: the biggest reason why I got put on the flight line for my charter op had to do with the kind of flying that I did. There was another local guy with 50% more hours than me, but it was all flying jumpers. He really didn't know the first thing about icing, weather, etc. If you can show knowledge in these areas, you'll put yourself ahead of the pack. Lots of multi hours help, too.

And, well, then you just need to know the right people.
 
> go to ATP flight school

I suggest avoiding the [cough] ATP schools that require significant pre-payment.
Many have been burned ... left with significant debt when the principals shutter
the school.

Also wise to be wary of [cough] schools that make promises about "jobs."
 
Got to law school, become a good lawyer, and fly for fun in your spare time.

become a good lawyer defending people in aviation from the parasites (unlike some lawyers who suck the life out of aviation companies).
 
become a good lawyer defending people in aviation from the parasites (unlike some lawyers who suck the life out of aviation companies).

Not the worst idea, I imagine manufacturers of airplanes and airplane parts all have attorneys on retainer. I think in this day and age becoming a professional pilot is not the wisest career move. That ship sailed long ago. There are lots of professional pilots here who have done well and love their jobs. I've met the other side though.
 
Navy requires ROTC or Academy to fly. Yes, you can transfer to the Academy if selected but as noted, you start as a freshman all over. I had a friend do that after one year of college. Neither guarantees aviation - where you rank in the class will determine your options.

If you choose to enlist, you can request certain jobs and make it part of your contract. I wouldn't advise anyone to enlist under any other conditions. Navy will train you to be an air traffic controller as well. I'm sure you'd get paid more starting out as a civilian but your education would be free and you would still have tuition assistance and/or GI Bill to complete bachelors or get a graduate degree.

I can't speak as fluently for Air Force but I bet it's the same.

All forces are downsizing now so it's tough like in civilian sector but it's not a bad gig. Our AC's also have 5 year shore duty rotations in order to get quals so you wouldn't deploy nearly as much as most other rates and there is more geographic stability.

Just an option.
 
Can you get a slot in the Naval Academy after you have already graduated college? Is there not just a program I can apply for to get me into Navy, Air Force, or National Guard flight? Of course there isn't, that would be way too simple. :mad2:

Yes, you can join USAF or Navy ROTC after having completed some college courses. You can also apply for OTS after college graduation. That is the only way to guarantee a flight slot before signing up for active duty. You could also start rushing a guard unit, if you are picked up there you know what you'll fly (if you make it through training) and you know where you'll live.
 
Of course, what these gentlemen aren't telling the OP is if he goes the military route he's becoming a soldier. Not everyone is cut out for the whole killing people thing.
 
Of course, what these gentlemen aren't telling the OP is if he goes the military route he's becoming a soldier. Not everyone is cut out for the whole killing people thing.

It should be pretty obvious to anyone that going into the military means that, well, you're part of the military. Therefore, you may be ordered to kill people.

There are a lot of flying jobs within the military that don't involve shooting guns or dropping bombs. Fly a KC-135, for instance.

Of course, I wouldn't go for a military job if the potential of being ordered to kill people was something I'd have a problem with.
 
Two of my favorite oldies are:

When the enemy is in range, so are you.

Tracers work both ways.

It should be pretty obvious to anyone that going into the military means that, well, you're part of the military. Therefore, you may be ordered to kill people.

There are a lot of flying jobs within the military that don't involve shooting guns or dropping bombs. Fly a KC-135, for instance.

Of course, I wouldn't go for a military job if the potential of being ordered to kill people was something I'd have a problem with.
 
It should be pretty obvious to anyone that going into the military means that, well, you're part of the military. Therefore, you may be ordered to kill people.

There are a lot of flying jobs within the military that don't involve shooting guns or dropping bombs. Fly a KC-135, for instance.

Of course, I wouldn't go for a military job if the potential of being ordered to kill people was something I'd have a problem with.

A soldier's job is to kill people, or assist others in doing so.
 
A soldier's job is to kill people, or assist others in doing so.

A soldier's job is to do what he or she is assigned to the best of that person's abilities.

You have a very jaded view of the military.

Killing may be involved in some military activities; by far not all.

Soldiers cook, build bridges, purify water, operate satellites, fly medevac, teach foreign languages, rescue hostages, deliver relief supplies, guard embassies, drop water on fires, repair cars, protect a nation, honor the dead, and on, and on, and on.

Yes, the military kills. Of course it does. It does so exceedingly well.

If you have a problem with that, you've no business being a citizen.

If you don't have a problem with that, then serve, or stop yacking about it.

Soldiers do far more than kill; to suggest that's their primary or sole purpose is to minimize the office of a soldier, and displays a gross misunderstanding of the service given.

Surely you wouldn't suggest that any soldier who returns from duty without having kiled someone has failed his or her duty? Of course that would be a ridiculous assertion, because the purpose of the soldier is not to kill, but to do as tasked in the service of his or her nation.
 
f you have a problem with that, you've no business being a citizen.

If you don't have a problem with that, then serve, or stop yacking about it.

I have no problem at all. Given the fact that you just wrote a diatribe about a simple statement of fact, I suspect you do.
 
Dave if you have a problem with killing then don't go in the military. It's as simple as that.

Can't speak for other services but as far as the Army goes you don't get to say well I don't want to have to kill anyone so I'll choose UH-60 and then MEDEVAC ones at that. At one time we were guaranteed our airframe choice based on class grades or order of merit list. From what the guys tell me now, it's just the needs of the Army. However, if you are so inclined to want to kill someone then Apaches (at least when I went through) are easy to get. At one point they were getting the bottom of each class so they finally swiped some from the top and forced them into Apaches. Luckly for me I was able to pick my airframe (UH-60) and duty station. I will say there is no rivalry between airframes though. Generally Hawk guys hang out with Hawk guys and Apache with each other. Anyone whos serves realizes the importance of everyone's skill set.

I think the killing part of it isn't the biggest problem that people face and want to get out. The hardship of being in the military is what wears people down. Not only do you have to be a pilot you have to be a good Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine. This entails a lot of things, such as additional duties. You could be a pubs officer, goggle officer, public works officer, fire marshal, hearing conservation officer and professional fridge stocker. I'm sure the Air Force/Navy guys can chime in with their specific duties as well. You'll have to attend professional development courses for weeks at a time. Give classes on crap that people should already know about. You'll attend computer training exercises and field events living in a tent in all kinds of weather. You'll attend survival training and literally get your ass kicked while eating a rabbitt...or in my case cactus(Don't recommend that). You'll do so much BS paperwork your eyes will bug out. Dunker, gas chamber, high alt chamber and numerous other unpleasent events designed to test you.

Then of course deployments. Living conditions vary but twice I lived in a 10'X30' room with 3 other guys sharing a latrine/head for a year at a time. Last deployment I actually had my own 8'X10' wooden houch! Unfortunately the latrine was so far away and kept in such disrepair I used a porta-potty for 6 months straight! Food's generally good. Although the same thing every week still can't complain. Of course as we said there's the whole killing thing but odds that you'd have to do that is slim. Odds would be better that someone is actually trying to kill you. I'm sure you would do fine in that situation. The one and only time I was specifically targeted on an LZ we all kinda laughed...not sure why. At any rate, generally speaking we we're much more worried about doing our jobs right than actually dying or worrying about having to kill someone.

So there's my military view in a nut shell. Definitely not the life for many that's why they offer such big bonuses (not Army) to try and keep us in. Yes pay ain't bad and Post 9-11 GI Bill (if you qualify) is a pretty good deal.

Just do the ATC thing like I told you in the PM. Air conditioned tower, hot ATC girls, you get to tell pilots where to go and no one is shooting at ya!
 
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Read and heed Doug's post #16. There comes a time when an insurance company, not the FAA, decides that you have sufficient experience for a given position.

Bob Gardner
 
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