Capable approach or unsafe?

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Jaybird180, May 5, 2012.

  1. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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  2. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    What makes you think it was a 0/0 approach?

    FWIW, having never seen it in person, that synthetic vision display on the right, at the end, was pretty cool.
     
  3. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    Possibly it was white out in the camera due to sun. Highly possible. I didn't think of that.

    But let's assume for the sake of discussion it was 0/0.
     
  4. Piloto

    Piloto Line Up and Wait

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    I agree since the camera aperture was set for the panel light.

    As for legality the video on the right screen looks from a FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) camera. My understanding of the regulation is that you can perform a legal a 0/0 approach as long as you have visual ques to the runway, which is the case here. This is what has made FLIR and EVS system attractive. Synthetic vision does not qualify since you can not determine a runway obstruction (another plane on the runway) with it. Beware that FLIR capability is limited by the density of the fog. Radar technology is not limited by the fog but has less resolution than FLIR, it is very expensive (over $100K) and would not fit in a piston single.

    José
     
  5. kkoran

    kkoran Cleared for Takeoff

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    Your understanding is wrong.

    14 CFR 91.175
     
  6. Piloto

    Piloto Line Up and Wait

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    Not really. The EVS approach limitation calls for insight view (without EVS) of the runway lights at 100ft on a non-CAT-III approach. You can still have no visibilty (with the naked eye) of the runway surroundings when you land, but had the approach lights in view just before touchdown, which is not uncommon. The above requirement is due to the fact that EVS does not provide guidance to the autoland system as is required below 100ft. On some B777 and B747 the EVS is projected on the HUDs. This allows the pilot to see the ADI superimposed over the EVS video on the windscreen. Unlike CAT-III only aircraft those with EVS can see taxiway activity where is not visible with the naked eye (CAT-IIIc). EVS would have prevented the Tenerife collision of two B747 on the runway in 1977.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjLrZ2SDDaU

    José
     
  7. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well, if he was actually shooting a 0/0 approach, then he's not using the legal equipment. I'd argue that single-pilot, that's a bad idea.

    That said, that equipment is pretty cool between the SVT and EVS. Anyone know of some sort of EVS that could be legally added to our non-equipped aircraft?
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
  8. kkoran

    kkoran Cleared for Takeoff

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    José,

    RVR represents the horizontal distance a pilot can expect to see down the runway, based on sighting either the High Intensity Runway Lights (HIRL) or the visual contrast of other targets. Therefore, it must be some value greater than zero for the pilot to see the lights when he is at 100 ft on the approach. Whether or not one can see the "runway surroundings" is irrelevant to the question of visibility in an aviation context.
     
  9. Piloto

    Piloto Line Up and Wait

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    My experience has been that a thin layer of fog will allow you to see the runway lights from above but not on the ground. This is because the layer maybe 50ft or less on vertical thickness but over 1000 feet horizontal to the lights or surrounding with fog in between. So in this case the RVR would appear to be zero on the ground but maybe 1000ft at 100ft over the ground. It is very much like morning fog in a city when looking out of the 10th floor, you can see the other buildings but when you are on the road you can not see the buildings.

    José
     
  10. kkoran

    kkoran Cleared for Takeoff

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    I think (hope) everyone understands that you might be able to see down through a thin layer of fog but when you descend into it, the visibility can be minimal. If, as the plane descends into the fog, the visibility is so low that the pilot loses sight of the threshold or touchdown zone lights, he has to to go missed since the regulation require that...
     
  11. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    If it's really 0/0, you won't be legal other than Cat III ILS since you won't see any of the Magic Ten at DH, and even if you do as Piloto suggested, you'll lose sight before touchdown, and that mandates a missed. There are some reduced minimums for enhanced vision systems, but special aircraft and aircrew training and certification are required, and the Cirrus doesn't have that certification.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2012
  12. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    What allows a pilot to fly CAT I, II, III approaches? Equipment requirements or training or something else?
     
  13. Captain

    Captain Final Approach

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    Cat I requires an instrument rating, currency and an equipped aircraft with current inspections.

    The others require specific training and more equipment. I've never flown more than Cat I.
     
  14. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yes. :)

    A CAT I is the standard ILS that we perform in our piston planes, and even most of the 135 and 121 folk are only doing CAT I on a regular basis.

    To get CAT II or III requires a good bit of additional equipment (both for the plane and the airport), two pilots (who have been trained), and some other things that I'm not familiar with since it's not something I've ever had cause to do.

    Not many airports have CAT II or III approaches. They only will if there's a good reason to have it, typically, since there's extra equipment required that costs money to install and maintain. Two examples of airports I've flown into that have CAT II approaches are CYYT (St. John's, Newfoundland) and KMHT (Manchester, NH). Both tend to have low cloud ceilings on a semi-regular basis and benefit from them.
     
  15. Piloto

    Piloto Line Up and Wait

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    Notice that 14 CFR 91.175 does not make reference to required ceiling or RVR. So is up to the pilot to make the visibility assesment. Coming on a ferry flight to CYYT from LPAZ at night the ground visibility was so bad that I had to wait for the "Follow Me" cart from Aerocentre FBO because the tower could not see me on the ground. Wish I had a GPS with airport diagram at the time. CYYT morning and evening fog combined with runway icing is a challenge. Twice I have seen there airliners go past beyond the runway end. To make things worse the prevailing CYYT-LPAZ headwinds are from the NW at over 50kts at times. And Gander is over 100nm away, so is either a CAT-II approach or a ditch in icy waters.

    José
     

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  16. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Is there a reason you're discussing US rules for a flight in Germany?
     
  17. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Both. Cat I is an Instrument rating required. Cat II requires an IR, Extra training and an evaluation flight (6 down to 100' and you do an eval flight, that gets you 150' authority then after another 6 you're fully Cat II to 100'); if your plane is above Category A on the bottom of the plate, you will need some special equipment like a radar altimeter. Cat III is both special training and a lot of special equipment since for all intents and purposes, it's an 'autoland' system.
     
  18. kkoran

    kkoran Cleared for Takeoff

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    What flight are you referring to?
     
  19. kkoran

    kkoran Cleared for Takeoff

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    That is true. And, if the pilot assesses the flight visibility to be zero, he is supposed to go missed because he obviously can't see at least one of the items he is required to see from 100 ft. to touchdown. Bottom line: EVS does not, from a regulatory perspective, permit zero-zero landings.

    Relevance?
     
  20. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It's possible to get pilot/aircraft approval for Cat II and waiver of some of the equipment requirements. Some have done it, many just don't find it worth it for that extra 100'
     
  21. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    If you are Category A plane there are no waivers for equipment as the requirements do not exist in order to be waived.
     
  22. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Close. You're thinking of a Category A Certificate of Authorization, and per 14 CFR 91.193 allows deviation from the normal Cat II regulatory requirements (91.189, 91.191, and 91.205(f)) for operations involving a Category A (1.3 Vs0 < 91 knots) small (less than 12,500 lb MGW) airplane. Also, after you get your initial Cat II, I believe it's 6 months, not just 6 approaches, before you can get the authorized DH lowered from 150 to 100. There are other details on which you were a little off about obtaining Cat II authorization -- see 61.67 for details.
     
  23. EppyGA

    EppyGA Final Approach

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    The OP said that he believed the video was from Germany and everyone went off on a discussion about U.S. regs.
     
  24. Piloto

    Piloto Line Up and Wait

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    And Gander is over 100nm away, so is either a CAT-II approach or a ditch in icy waters.

    What would you do in this case if your plane is certified for CAT-I and has no EVS?.

    The above example is to show that visibility is relative to the viewer and depends on your location.

    An EVS equipped plane does not need to be CAT-II equipped neither the airport to accomplish a CAT-II minimums approach on an airport that not even has an ILS approach. But I have to admit that a radio altimeter is a handy instrument to have even if EVS equipped.

    José
     
  25. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    You may think that is possible, but it certainly isn't legal outside of an emergency situation.
     
  26. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yep, I've flown up to CYYT a handful of times. The weather up there can be quite bad. Alternates are the biggest problem, as you noted.

    It would've helped if they hadn't put the airport on top of a hill.
     
  27. Wingsofglass

    Wingsofglass Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I have a plane with SVT. Usually when I do instrument currency with a CFI I'll attempt one 0/0 approach under the hood using SVT to land. I do this because it's both fun and provides enhanced awareness of pitch, power altitude and decent rate. SVT is accurate enough that if there is a cross wind, the center stripes will be at an angle.

    What I have learned from this is if I ever had to do a 0/0 approach (and I can't imagine why I would), I'll probably survive but wad up the plane unless I get really lucky. I've never flown with EVS but I can tell you landing solely using SVT is crazy unless it's the only option left which most likely means you as PIC have really screwed up along the way.
     
  28. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Very true. I used to think it would be cool to do a 0/0 landing, just in the same way that the 172 pilot hopes that both pilots eat the fish on their flight and the 172 pilot, having had the chicken, must land the 747 single pilot and save the 500 people on board. I've since developed a sense of my own mortality (as well as the capabilities of both me and my equipment), and hope to never have to perform one. This is as someone who flies 600 hours a year and isn't afraid of bad weather, low approaches, etc.

    But if someday I do need to do one as a last resort and my best option (for whatever reason), I hope that I've saved up enough luck coins to survive and not need repairs to the plane.
     
  29. Piloto

    Piloto Line Up and Wait

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    Not your fault. Unlike EVS (30Hz), SVT update rate is a slow 5Hz. You also need the radio altimeter with 10' call outs for proper flare.

    José