Cap and Trade is here - California

[Snaproll]

Just love all of the California stuff.. Interestingly, many don't remember how polluted the skies of SoCal were in the 50's - 60's - 70's. I learned to fly out of Flabob (RIR) during the 60's pollution days and there were many IFR days due to smog, i.e.. less than 1 mile visibility - couldn't even fly the pattern. As stupid as many of the pollution laws appear, they worked in SoCal, the air is cleaner, and we stay VFR except for clouds and fog occasionally. VR.. Don

 

[CharlieTango]

Just love all of the California stuff.. Interestingly, many don't remember how polluted the skies of SoCal were in the 50's - 60's - 70's. I learned to fly out of Flabob (RIR) during the 60's pollution days and there were many IFR days due to smog, i.e.. less than 1 mile visibility - couldn't even fly the pattern. As stupid as many of the pollution laws appear, they worked in SoCal, the air is cleaner, and we stay VFR except for clouds and fog occasionally. VR.. Don

Its different this time because CO2 is not pollution.

 

[denverpilot]

You ask truck drivers and retail outlets about the dynamics of wholesale commodities and wonder why they don't know? Really?



Commodity pricing is a dynamical sysytem. No one is in direct control. And the people you are asking are in profoundly poor position to understand the indirect forces. Why not ask the garbage collector while you're at it?

Oh this is horse crap. Of course the customer asked their local supplier. That's just normal business. As is that supplier seeing if they can get that information from corporate. You know, the people they supposedly make the money for?

Someone above him knows and refuses to share the information with customers so he asked. He also got refused.

It's not like the information isn't in the computers at the trading office and tracked from here to sideways by the MBAs in an often SAP-based tracking system.

Running a report for dealers of the product that show the breakdown in OpEx, CapEx, and taxes, is an hour of a developer's time and they could do it while watching porn on their other monitor. A summary report monthly of the costs is probably already automatically emailed to lower executive staff at every single energy company, daily.

Certainly was when I was in the biz and we had to request time on the mainframe.

The reality is, they don't WANT to provide it. It's not technically hard to DO so. Nor is it some difficult number to understand.

Sure, the actual daily trading is difficult. Giving customers a breakdown of what they're actually paying for? Easy. And it would show how inexpensive the product actually is, minus taxation. Which is a win for the company. Hiding it is ultra-stupid.

 

[Dav8or]

That's NOT the way it's supposed to work. You missed the "and trade" portion.

Oh, I didn't miss it, but what happens when the credits run out because there are only so many green industries and the evil polluters have to continue to produce to meet our energy and consumer demands? They have to buy "allowances" from the state. They don't actually pay for these "permits" in reality because the cost is passed on to the consumer well hidden. The state collects the tax at the wholesale level, so the retailer never knows how much it is and therefore the consumer never knows either.

Maybe it's not the way it's supposed too work, but that's the way it does work.

 

[Dav8or]

The fuel is made in California and piped to Vegas, i pick it up and haul it to Utah. Now all the sudden we are going to SLC(300 miles to SLC vs 110 to Vegas) so im wondering if cap and trade has affected the wholesale price in Vegas.

Quite possibly, I don't know. That's a good question for lawyers in interstate commerce. Can California impose a tax on a wholesaler in Nevada? I don't have an answer on that.

 

[Dav8or]

There are no other "taxes" anywhere that work by auction.

The closest analogy would be a concession fee such as a mineral rights lease.

The company, not the government, decides how much to pay. And can sell it to other companies at a profit or loss. How many taxes do you know of that work that way?

It's simple to call everything involving money a tax and use it as invective to try to manipulate people. Too simple.

Neat. They came up with a new, clever way to tax consumers and hopefully they'll never know. People are going to pay more for a gallon of gas than they need to. The government is the ultimate recipient of that money. It's a tax, albeit a fancy one.

 

[Dav8or]

Just love all of the California stuff.. Interestingly, many don't remember how polluted the skies of SoCal were in the 50's - 60's - 70's. I learned to fly out of Flabob (RIR) during the 60's pollution days and there were many IFR days due to smog, i.e.. less than 1 mile visibility - couldn't even fly the pattern. As stupid as many of the pollution laws appear, they worked in SoCal, the air is cleaner, and we stay VFR except for clouds and fog occasionally. VR.. Don

That's true. It did really help back then, but what are we going to get this time for our money? Will the skies get clearer? Will the air be cleaner? What have the Europeans gotten so far?

 

[Sam D]

There are no other "taxes" anywhere that work by auction.

The closest analogy would be a concession fee such as a mineral rights lease.

The company, not the government, decides how much to pay. And can sell it to other companies at a profit or loss. How many taxes do you know of that work that way?

It's simple to call everything involving money a tax and use it as invective to try to manipulate people. Too simple.

Spectrum licenses for wireless carriers? Originally every area had two licenses, one went to the local landline company and the other went up for lottery. These things were hugely valuable and now the spectrum is auctioned off rather than lottery. Don't know that I'd call it a tax though.

Liquor licenses might be another example.