Canceled clearance to land while on final

[Tracey]

My instructor and I were on final the other day (at KBED), about 2 miles out (going for a "straight in" approach) when ATC canceled our clearance to land. (They wanted a jet to land in front of us). I thought that meant to turn and leave final but my instructor said that they did not tell us to turn, so we should stay on final but slow down, which we did. A jet then pulled in front of us and landed, and then we were cleared to land again and we did.

My question is: is this common? If you all were cleared to land and on final and then your clearance was canceled- would you stay on final and await further instructions? Ask ATC for clarification?

I realize that 2 miles out is far enough to slow down and let someone else land, but it's just something that I've never read about or experienced before, so it was a completely new experience for me.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Personally, I would have asked for clarification. It's not like you can just stop and wait.

I've cancelled my own clearance whilst on final approach to a towered airport, when a controller pulled another plane out onto my runway to depart. I simply announced that I was going around, and reentered the downwind.

(I was a student pilot, not very familiar with tower operations, and -- with 18 years of hindsight -- probably had plenty of room to land behind the guy, who would have been gone by the time I got there. But...you don't know what you don't know, and my instructor had taught me that safety was Job One. The tower controller was NOT happy. )

 

[poadeleted20]

Unless told otherwise, I would continue. If the controller wants anything else, s/he should say so explicitly. If it looked like there would be a conflict, or I was getting close to the runway without a new landing clearance, I'd speak up (and maneuver to avoid if necessary), but I wouldn't get all excited if it happened two miles out. In a typical light plane, that's two minutes from touchdown, and that's a long time.

 

[Tracey]

Unless told otherwise, I would continue. If the controller wants anything else, s/he should say so explicitly. If it looked like there would be a conflict, or I was getting close to the runway without a new landing clearance, I'd speak up (and maneuver to avoid if necessary), but I wouldn't get all excited if it happene two miles out. In a typical light plane, that's two minutes from touchdown, and that's a long time.

It was exactly 2 minutes from touchdown (we timed it for wake turbulence). Thanks for your response too, good to know that's how you'd do it.

 

[Tracey]

I've cancelled my own clearance whilst on final approach to a towered airport, when a controller pulled another plane out onto my runway to depart. I simply announced that I was going around, and reentered the downwind.

So you overflew the runway or did a teardrop that then put you on the midfield xwind? (I'm trying to picture what you did).

 

[Jay Honeck]

Unless told otherwise, I would continue. If the controller wants anything else, s/he should say so explicitly. If it looked like there would be a conflict, or I was getting close to the runway without a new landing clearance, I'd speak up (and maneuver to avoid if necessary), but I wouldn't get all excited if it happened two miles out. In a typical light plane, that's two minutes from touchdown, and that's a long time.

You're going 60 mph on final for two minutes?

Most controllers would not be too happy with that, in my experience.

 

[denverpilot]

Agreed. Continue. And don't hit whoever they put on front of you. It's an efficiency thing and they can't have you both cleared to land unless they can guarantee separation. They'll tell you if you need to break off and you can "assist" by slowing if it's tight. If it's really tight and you flung all the flaps out and slowed way up, sometimes they'll even say "thanks" for the effort.

 

[zaitcev]

My question is: is this common? If you all were cleared to land and on final and then your clearance was canceled- would you stay on final and await further instructions? Ask ATC for clarification?

It's not common where I fly. If it were to happen to me, I would say "roger, Tower, slowing down to 70 knots", so they know my intentions. Do not do a spacing circle unless told. If the frequence is not busy and at my home field, I could ask "do you guys want us to circle".

 

[Jay Honeck]

So you overflew the runway or did a teardrop that then put you on the midfield xwind? (I'm trying to picture what you did).

Yep, I broke off the approach and entered a left downwind. IMHO, the spacing was insufficient to land safely.

In retrospect, I was probably wrong. But I had MAYBE 20 hours in the logbook, and had never landed at a towered airport (solo) before that landing.

 

[redtail]

My instructor and I were on final the other day (at KBED), about 2 miles out (going for a "straight in" approach) when ATC canceled our clearance to land. (They wanted a jet to land in front of us). I thought that meant to turn and leave final but my instructor said that they did not tell us to turn, so we should stay on final but slow down, which we did. A jet then pulled in front of us and landed, and then we were cleared to land again and we did.

My question is: is this common? If you all were cleared to land and on final and then your clearance was canceled- would you stay on final and await further instructions? Ask ATC for clarification?

I realize that 2 miles out is far enough to slow down and let someone else land, but it's just something that I've never read about or experienced before, so it was a completely new experience for me.

Just had that happen to me on my last flight. The difference is he told me to do a wide right 360 and fall in behind the Gulfstream that was breathing down my back. I've also had tower cancel my landing clearance on final but told me to continue for the field. I always just continue or ask if there's any doubt. If I'm ever unsure of my landing clearance, I ask.

 

[Tracey]

You're going 60 mph on final for two minutes?

Most controllers would not be too happy with that, in my experience.

No, probably more like 70 to 75 kts, it was a little gusty at TPA. It's hard for me to gauge when to slow down/do flaps etc when I'm making a straight in approach, since I always use "abeam the numbers" on downwind as my cue for that. I'm sure I screw up any straight in approach in that regard.

 

[Tracey]

I've also had tower cancel my landing clearance on final but told me to continue for the field.

That's the thing, they didn't tell us what to do, just that our clearance had been canceled.

But good advice, I need to remember to ASK when unsure and not take it upon myself to make a decision. I'm learning at an untowered airport, so when I'm in a controlled space, I need to remember that I'm not calling all the shots and to ask.

 

[4CornerFlyer]

Jay's experience is a good example of why student pilots should identify themselves as such on initial contact. A controller then is less likely to be annoyed that you don't know every intricacy af ATC procedures.
Jon

 

[Tracey]

Jay's experience is a good example of why student pilots should identify themselves as such on initial contact. A controller then is less likely to be annoyed that you don't know every intricacy af ATC procedures.
Jon

I wasn't flying solo-- or you bet I would have!

 

[Jay Honeck]

No, probably more like 70 to 75 kts, it was a little gusty at TPA. It's hard for me to gauge when to slow down/do flaps etc when I'm making a straight in approach, since I always use "abeam the numbers" on downwind as my cue for that. I'm sure I screw up any straight in approach in that regard.

Okay, that sounds better. But then, you were more like 3 miles out, not 2. (Well, okay, now you've made me find the calculator....2.88 miles out, at 75 knots.)

 

[TMetzinger]

Getting the clearance cancelled just means "you don't own the runway" anymore. They should tell you what they need you to differently, if anything. In your case they might have had a departure to deal with first or something else on the runway.

But, when you're confused, ASK. Even if you annoy ATC, he'd much rather be annoyed and have you on the same page than the opposite.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Jay's experience is a good example of why student pilots should identify themselves as such on initial contact. A controller then is less likely to be annoyed that you don't know every intricacy af ATC procedures.
Jon

Yeah, that's one thing I really wish my instructor had told me to do. He was an old-school, seat-of-the-pants pilot who could fly anything, in any weather (and often did) -- but he did NOT like authority, or ATC.

As a result, I received (in retrospect) short shrift on my education into the intricacies of airspace. This was right after the system converted to Class A, B, C, etc., and I'm not sure HE was entirely comfortable with the new way of doing things.

On the other hand, I got a GREAT education in stick and rudder skills, which has served me well. As with all teachers, you glean the good, and discard the bad.

 

[Clark1961]

No, probably more like 70 to 75 kts, it was a little gusty at TPA. It's hard for me to gauge when to slow down/do flaps etc when I'm making a straight in approach, since I always use "abeam the numbers" on downwind as my cue for that. I'm sure I screw up any straight in approach in that regard.

For distances, just consider how far you are from the runway in terms of distance traveled in the pattern. At abeam the touch down point it's roughly 2 1/4 miles from touch down if flying a 3/4 mile pattern. That 45 degree point looking over the shoulder makes the math easy (isosceles right triangle). Anyway, just adjust speed and flaps as normal based on distance around the pattern.

 

[poadeleted20]

You're going 60 mph on final for two minutes?

60 knots ground speed on final is pretty typical for a light single, and you slow further at the threshold.

Most controllers would not be too happy with that, in my experience.

Well, in my 43 years of flying, I've never seen that as an issue outside of someplace like O'Hare or Hartsfield. OTOH, I have many times had controllers ask me to slow down behind traffic in front of me either to stay behind them or make a hole for someone else, but YMMV.

 

[Tracey]

Getting the clearance cancelled just means "you don't own the runway" anymore.

That's helpful-- it simplifies things (and that's always good!).

And yes, I will remember to ask-- especially if I'm alone. Thank you Tim.

 

[Tracey]

For distances, just consider how far you are from the runway in terms of distance traveled in the pattern. At abeam the touch down point it's roughly 2 1/4 miles from touch down if flying a 3/4 mile pattern. That 45 degree point looking over the shoulder makes the math easy (isosceles right triangle). Anyway, just adjust speed and flaps as normal based on distance around the pattern.

This is one of those "why didn't I think of that" things-- thanks for this!

 

[ARFlyer]

Agreed. Continue. And don't hit whoever they put on front of you. It's an efficiency thing and they can't have you both cleared to land unless they can guarantee separation. They'll tell you if you need to break off and you can "assist" by slowing if it's tight. If it's really tight and you flung all the flaps out and slowed way up, sometimes they'll even say "thanks" for the effort.

I have had Dallas Love Tower thank me a few times for doing a tight base and a "high" speed final for traffic.

Both Tulsa Tower and a F16 pilot thanked me after making a fast final for the pair of F16s and telling them when I was past the military arresting system. I have always wondered why they wanted to know. Couldn't they just as easily wait until they visually see me past over?

 

[roncachamp]

My instructor and I were on final the other day (at KBED), about 2 miles out (going for a "straight in" approach) when ATC canceled our clearance to land. (They wanted a jet to land in front of us). I thought that meant to turn and leave final but my instructor said that they did not tell us to turn, so we should stay on final but slow down, which we did. A jet then pulled in front of us and landed, and then we were cleared to land again and we did.

My question is: is this common? If you all were cleared to land and on final and then your clearance was canceled- would you stay on final and await further instructions? Ask ATC for clarification?

I realize that 2 miles out is far enough to slow down and let someone else land, but it's just something that I've never read about or experienced before, so it was a completely new experience for me.

If there was no need for you to adjust your pattern or speed there was no reason to cancel the landing clearance.

 

[Tracey]

If there was no need for you to adjust your pattern or speed there was no reason to cancel the landing clearance.

Makes sense, but they did. So I'm not sure what you're saying-- that ATC made a mistake? Sorry, I'm not quite getting your point.

 

[roncachamp]

Getting the clearance cancelled just means "you don't own the runway" anymore. They should tell you what they need you to differently, if anything. In your case they might have had a departure to deal with first or something else on the runway.

Having a landing clearance does not mean "you own the runway". Other aircraft can be cleared for takeoff or landing without rescinding your landing clearance.

 

[kkoran]

I have had Dallas Love Tower thank me a few times for doing a tight base and a "high" speed final for traffic.

Both Tulsa Tower and a F16 pilot thanked me after making a fast final for the pair of F16s and telling them when I was past the military arresting system.

I have always wondered why they wanted to know.

So they could raise the cable for the F-16s.

Couldn't they just as easily wait until they visually see me past over?

That would require them to concentrate on your position rather than dealing with other things.

 

[roncachamp]

Makes sense, but they did. So I'm not sure what you're saying-- that ATC made a mistake? Sorry, I'm not quite getting your point.

I'm saying it was not necessary for ATC to cancel your landing clearance.

 

[Tracey]

Having a landing clearance does not mean "you own the runway". Other aircraft can be cleared for takeoff or landing without rescinding your landing clearance.

What I took Tim to mean wasn't that I 'owned the runway' but that they were expecting me to land. That they were, essentially, "holding" a spot for me in line to land, and that to cancel my clearance meant that they were no longer "holding my spot."

 

[Tracey]

I'm saying it was not necessary for ATC to cancel your landing clearance.

Oh right. In retrospect, it really wasn't. I think what they really wanted us to do was to slow down (not that we'd catch up to a jet in a little 172 however!). But I see what you're saying.

 

[Henning]

My instructor and I were on final the other day (at KBED), about 2 miles out (going for a "straight in" approach) when ATC canceled our clearance to land. (They wanted a jet to land in front of us). I thought that meant to turn and leave final but my instructor said that they did not tell us to turn, so we should stay on final but slow down, which we did. A jet then pulled in front of us and landed, and then we were cleared to land again and we did.

My question is: is this common? If you all were cleared to land and on final and then your clearance was canceled- would you stay on final and await further instructions? Ask ATC for clarification?

I realize that 2 miles out is far enough to slow down and let someone else land, but it's just something that I've never read about or experienced before, so it was a completely new experience for me.

Yep, not uncommon, just working it all in.

 

[TMetzinger]

Having a landing clearance does not mean "you own the runway". Other aircraft can be cleared for takeoff or landing without rescinding your landing clearance.

It does mean you can expect to be able to land when you get there. If they cancel your clearance, it means you can't.

 

[Clark1961]

"why didn't I think of that"

'cause you're just like the rest of us and too busy learning things at this stage...

 

[ScottK]

I just had a landing clearance canceled abeam the numbers on downwind. A corp jet announced over the final marker, so they ask me to extend dw. They cleared the jet to land then came back to me with "cleared to land #2".

I haven't had any canceled on final, but with Spirit and corp jets in and out, we get moved around once in awhile. Once you get use to hearing the requests, it's not too bad.

 

[jspilot]

My instructor and I were on final the other day (at KBED), about 2 miles out (going for a "straight in" approach) when ATC canceled our clearance to land. (They wanted a jet to land in front of us). I thought that meant to turn and leave final but my instructor said that they did not tell us to turn, so we should stay on final but slow down, which we did. A jet then pulled in front of us and landed, and then we were cleared to land again and we did.

My question is: is this common? If you all were cleared to land and on final and then your clearance was canceled- would you stay on final and await further instructions? Ask ATC for clarification?

I realize that 2 miles out is far enough to slow down and let someone else land, but it's just something that I've never read about or experienced before, so it was a completely new experience for me.

The only downside to training and now flying at KISP is that when Southwest airlines comes in they thrown the pattern into a mess. I've had my landing clearance cancelled twice in my a little over 75 hours. Once during my first solo believe it or not. I was turning base and was cleared to land only to be told a few seconds later clearance was cancelled and to rejoin the downwind because I believe a cirus was arriving and going much faster. It was a non issue and I was given clear instructions on what to do so I was not confused. The other time was similar to yours because Southwest was landing and overtaking us so we were told to make a "sidestep low approach to the right of the centerline followed by an early right crosswind." Again their was no confusion because ATC did a good job of telling us what to do.

If I was not sure what to do I'd ask. I would guess the worst thing to do would be to assume something and be wrong. I give the controllers at airports with all different types of aircraft flying in an out of all the time so much credit. It has to be a really hard job when you have a jet arriving doing 150 knots on final and 172's and Pipers doing 70 knots to co-ordinate finals. Must be easier when everyone is in a single engine plugging away at 70 knots to make sure no one gets overtaken on final.

 

[Henning]

I'm saying it was not necessary for ATC to cancel your landing clearance.

What if continued flight would lead to conflict in spacing on the runway? Wouldn't they have to cancel the landing clearance? It the #2 decides to slow and create separation, they can later be re-issued landing clearance when the intervening landing is clear enough.

 

[Henning]

Oh right. In retrospect, it really wasn't. I think what they really wanted us to do was to slow down (not that we'd catch up to a jet in a little 172 however!). But I see what you're saying.

I'm pretty sure there is mandatory minimum spacing they can give you following different aircraft.

Try to stay steep and long of a jet landing, if there is a crosswind, pass its wake upwind before you descend to a point further up the runway than their touch down.

 

[poadeleted20]

Part of the problem for tower when they try to slip one in is that they cannot be sure the one they slipped in will land and clear the runway before the next plane crosses the threshold. A couple of weeks ago, tower slipped a light jet in front of me. I put a good space behind him, and slowed up. He touched down near the numbers while I was still on base leg. He slowed, and rolled...and rolled...and rolled, slowly, all the way past two turnoffs with another 1000 feet to the end. I still hadn't crossed the threshold, but tower had to send me around, I watched him roll slowly to the end before he cleared. Tower wasn't happy with him, but there wasn't much they could do about it.

 

[Henning]

Part of the problem for tower when they try to slip one in is that they cannot be sure the one they slipped in will land and clear the runway before the next plane crosses the threshold. A couple of weeks ago, tower slipped a light jet in front of me. I put a good space behind him, and slowed up. He touched down near the numbers while I was still on base leg. He slowed, and rolled...and rolled...and rolled, slowly, all the way past two turnoffs with another 1000 feet to the end. I still hadn't crossed the threshold, but tower had to send me around, I watched him roll slowly to the end before he cleared. Tower wasn't happy with him, but there wasn't much they could do about it.

Those are the guys that give the jet jocks a bad name. Whenever ATC/Tower gave me a 'your discretion' priority landing clearance they could always count on me being 'no delays to clear' even if I land halfway down for parking off the end.

 

[roncachamp]

What if continued flight would lead to conflict in spacing on the runway? Wouldn't they have to cancel the landing clearance? It the #2 decides to slow and create separation, they can later be re-issued landing clearance when the intervening landing is clear enough.

Did you miss the earlier message, #23?

If there was no need for you to adjust your pattern or speed there was no reason to cancel the landing clearance.

If continued flight would lead to conflict in spacing on the runway it means there was a need to adjust the pattern or speed.

 

[Henning]

Did you miss the earlier message, #23?



If continued flight would lead to conflict in spacing on the runway it means there was a need to adjust the pattern or speed.

No, I didn't miss it, so are you saying you figured out why he cancelled the landing clearance? I've had the exact same thing happen and did the same thing with the same outcome. It's all good, he can't tell me what to do with my plane, he can only tell me what I can't do, ' I can't land right now'. What I do from there to deal with it is up to me. As long as the slipped in traffic is courteous, it's all good.