Can you Believe

[flyifrvfr]

A CFI from another board just posted he believes you have to be a CFII to give the 10 hours of instrument training to a commercial student. He thinks a CFI cant do the entire training for a commercial student including the 10 hours of training.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes, I can, since that is the FAA Flight Standards Service's position -- see the Part 61 FAQ file, #60 and #545. Of course, if the commercial trainee already has an instrument rating, those 10 hours of post-private instrument training are already covered, so no futher instrument training would be needed for the commercial.

 

[ScottM]

Yes, I can, since that is the FAA Flight Standards Service's position -- see the Part 61 FAQ file, #60 and #545. Of course, if the commercial trainee already has an instrument rating, those 10 hours of post-private instrument training are already covered, so no futher instrument training would be needed for the commercial.

Is the FAQ still online? i can't seem to find it anymore.

 

[poadeleted20]

Is the FAQ still online?

No. The Flight Standards Service Part 61 and Part 141 FAQ's have been pulled to be integrated into a full FAA Q&A page -- one of those "one size fits all" deals that eliminates separate FAQ areas from the varions FAA branches and lumps them all together. Thus, you'll go to the same place to find out how to complain about lost luggage, what they mean by "known icing conditions," how many copies of an airport master plan have to be filed, and the qualifications to be a secretary in an FAA typing pool. However, in another example of FAA poor forethought, they pulled all the information while they develop the new master file.

 

[Eamon]

Yes, I can, since that is the FAA Flight Standards Service's position -- see the Part 61 FAQ file, #60 and #545. Of course, if the commercial trainee already has an instrument rating, those 10 hours of post-private instrument training are already covered, so no futher instrument training would be needed for the commercial.

My DE gave me the hardest time about not having 10 extra hr of CFII instrument training even though I had my instrument tag already.

Why does the FAR's need to be soo fuzzy????????????????????????

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Yes, I can, since that is the FAA Flight Standards Service's position

More important, it is long-standing, published FAA legal position--Mark Kobler posted (on the original webboard) the FAA legal interpretation letter.

 

[flyifrvfr]

More important, it is long-standing, published FAA legal position--Mark Kobler posted (on the original webboard) the FAA legal interpretation letter. Mark, BTW, is the CFI who Victor was attempting to belittle whilst Victor caught is diminutive winkie in his zipper, so to speak.

Actually, I was not trying to belittle anyone. I will call the fsdo monday because I can't find the FAQ that Ron speaks of. Second, I am a CFI/CFII/MEI so it really isn't an issue for me. But lets look at this another way so people can see my arguement. Lets say a flight school loses all of their CFII's to an airline, and the only instructors working there are CFI's. A student comes in and says I need a commercial license, but I don't have an instrument rating. Is it your position that a CFI can't train the student completely including the instrument training requirement? I don't buy this.

In addition, during my CFII checkride, a D.E. asked me if a CFI who is not a double I can give a student instrument training? I answered that the CFI can give a student instrument training, but it won't count towards an instrument rating. The D.E said I was correct. It is my position per FAR 61.193 which allows a CFI to give training for a certificate which is what the commercial license is. The instrument training is a requirement for the commercial certificate and won't be applied towards the instrument rating. This is the basis of my argument. If I am wrong, a FSDO inspector will tell me I am wrong and so be it.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Actually, I was not trying to belittle anyone.

So your story, and you're sticking to it, is that you brought a post here regarding another webboard thread which had no content in common with, nor any connection whatsoever to this webboard, in which post you denigrated another CFI's knowledge, and your intent in making the posting on this webboard wasn't to belittle that CFI?

I will call the fsdo monday because I can't find the FAQ that Ron speaks of.

The FAA pulled the entire FAQ file. But even if it still existed, an FAA legal interpretation trumps an FAA flight standards statement (the FAQ file), especially one that begins with a disclaimer stating that it should not be relied upon for legal interpreations. You have access to an FAA legal interpretation--I suggest you read it.

Second, I am a CFI/CFII/MEI so it really isn't an issue for me.

I’d think it would be an issue to you in that you have not a clue with respect to topic(s) which you are purportedly qualified to teach and may in fact teach. A good CFI strives to teach correct material. If it "isn't an issue for you" one can only assume that accuracy isn't an issue for you.

But lets look at this another way so people can see my argument. Lets say a flight school loses all of their CFII's to an airline, and the only instructors working there are CFI's. A student comes in and says I need a commercial license, but I don't have an instrument rating. Is it your position that a CFI can't train the student completely including the instrument training requirement?

That's correct—as explained to you (and the world) by the legal interpretation Mark provided to you (and the world),, if a regulation calls for “instrument training” then that training must be delivered by a CFII.

I don't buy this.

You've read an FAA legal opinion telling you it is so. I could understand misreading the regulations--even if they are rather clear on the subject--but faced with an FAA legal interpretation stating same, it would take some severe obstinence not to buy the stated facts as being FAA legal interpretation and therefore FAA reality.

In addition, during my CFII checkride, a D.E. asked me if a CFI who is not a double I can give a student instrument training? I answered that the CFI can give a student instrument training, but it won't count towards an instrument rating. The DE said I was correct.

a. Your DE was most likely referring to flight training in “operating an aircraft by reference to instruments”, not “instrument training”, those two being two totally different animals.
b. You have a serious semantics understanding issue. "Instrument training" by definition is training delivered by an instrument instructor. Anything else (i.e., any training that can't be counted towards an instrument rating) is not instrument training, ergo you have an obvious oxymoron in your example. “Instrument training” that may not be counted towards an instrument rating? Doesn’t exist. Read the legal opinion.

It is my position per FAR 61.193 which allows a CFI to give training for a certificate which is what the commercial license is. The instrument training is a requirement for the commercial certificate and won't be applied towards the instrument rating. This is the basis of my argument. If I am wrong, a FSDO inspector will tell me I am wrong and so be it.

FSDOs don't issue legal interpretations, nor do FSDO inspectors. It doesn't matter what a FSDO inspector tells you. FAA legal issues legal interpretations, which, by the way, Mark provided. Read the legal interpretation. Your interpretation is flawed.

 

[poadeleted20]

Actually, I was not trying to belittle anyone. I will call the fsdo monday because I can't find the FAQ that Ron speaks of. Second, I am a CFI/CFII/MEI so it really isn't an issue for me. But lets look at this another way so people can see my arguement. Lets say a flight school loses all of their CFII's to an airline, and the only instructors working there are CFI's. A student comes in and says I need a commercial license, but I don't have an instrument rating. Is it your position that a CFI can't train the student completely including the instrument training requirement? I don't buy this.

It's not my position, it's AFS-800's. They are the ones who wrote the rules in question. Whether you like that or not isn't particularly important to the FAA. It's their ball, their ball field, and they get to make the rules.

In addition, during my CFII checkride, a D.E. asked me if a CFI who is not a double I can give a student instrument training? I answered that the CFI can give a student instrument training, but it won't count towards an instrument rating. The D.E said I was correct.

Either you misremember the question or the DPE was not on board with AFS-640 (Examiner Standardization). Student Pilots do not receive "instrument training" -- they receive "flight training ... on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments" (14 CFR 61.109(a)(3)). The words were put in there specifically so a flight instructor with only ASE rating on his CFI can take someone all the way through PP-ASEL. If the reg writers had wanted CFI-ASE's to be able to fully train commercial pilots, they would have used the same words in 14 CFR 61.129(a)(3)(i) instead of saying "instrument training."

It is my position per FAR 61.193 which allows a CFI to give training for a certificate which is what the commercial license is. The instrument training is a requirement for the commercial certificate and won't be applied towards the instrument rating. This is the basis of my argument. If I am wrong, a FSDO inspector will tell me I am wrong and so be it.

Rather than rely on an individual FSDO, you might want to try listening to what FAA HQ says, which is what the FSDO's are supposed to do. The FAQ file is too large to post, but here are the relevant words:

QUESTION: Is the § 61.129(a)(3)(i); (b)(3)(i), etc. a requirement that “instrument training” be provided by a CFII rather than a CFI?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.1(b)(10); Yes, the instrument training required by § 61.129 requires a CFII (with the appropriate aircraft and instrument rating on the CFI certificate) to provide the flight training.
{Q&A-60}


While it's possible you may find an undertrained examiner or FSDO inspector who says otherwise, that person is doing something other than what his superiors have said he is to do.

 

[flyifrvfr]

It's not my position, it's AFS-800's. They are the ones who wrote the rules in question. Whether you like that or not isn't particularly important to the FAA. It's their ball, their ball field, and they get to make the rules.

Either you misremember the question or the DPE was not on board with AFS-640 (Examiner Standardization). Student Pilots do not receive "instrument training" -- they receive "flight training ... on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments" (14 CFR 61.109(a)(3)). The words were put in there specifically so a flight instructor with only ASE rating on his CFI can take someone all the way through PP-ASEL. If the reg writers had wanted CFI-ASE's to be able to fully train commercial pilots, they would have used the same words in 14 CFR 61.129(a)(3)(i) instead of saying "instrument training."

Rather than rely on an individual FSDO, you might want to try listening to what FAA HQ says, which is what the FSDO's are supposed to do. The FAQ file is too large to post, but here are the relevant words:

QUESTION: Is the § 61.129(a)(3)(i); (b)(3)(i), etc. a requirement that “instrument training” be provided by a CFII rather than a CFI?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.1(b)(10); Yes, the instrument training required by § 61.129 requires a CFII (with the appropriate aircraft and instrument rating on the CFI certificate) to provide the flight training.
{Q&A-60}


While it's possible you may find an undertrained examiner or FSDO inspector who says otherwise, that person is doing something other than what his superiors have said he is to do.

There are a few arguments one can make about this interpretation. Although instrument training is defined in 61.1 (b) (10), one could say that because the commercial applicant who doesn't hold an instrument rating is prohibited from flying for hire at night or more than 50 miles from the departure airport, a CFI should be able to complete the applicants trainnig because the instrument training is not for an instrument rating. The instrument training is for the commercial certificate. I believe the language should have read flight training by reference to instruments as opposed to instrument training.

Like any good CFI who is unsure about a subject area should, I will research this subject and arrive at the correct answer through my research. As I said before, If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it. I don't believe I am high and mighty as others here believe they are and question my abilities or responsibility as a CFI.

 

[woodstock]

Like any good CFI who is unsure about a subject area should, I will research this subject and arrive at the correct answer through my research. As I said before, If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it. I don't believe I am high and mighty as others here believe they are and question my abilities or responsibility as a CFI.

but you have researched it and you've been told the answer. by an FAA official and an experienced and very knowledgeable flight instructor. how many more opinions do you need until you get the answer you want?

and I don't know jack about FARs and I'll be the first to admit it, but I could tell you without hours of research you need a CFII to get instrument training. and a CFI to get PPL training. I could get my ticket, and take a friend for a ride and let them hold the controls and tell them to step on the ball and run them through the landing sequence but it doesn't count for squat.

 

[flyifrvfr]

but you have researched it and you've been told the answer. by an FAA official and an experienced and very knowledgeable flight instructor. how many more opinions do you need until you get the answer you want?

and I don't know jack about FARs and I'll be the first to admit it, but I could tell you without hours of research you need a CFII to get instrument training. and a CFI to get PPL training. I could get my ticket, and take a friend for a ride and let them hold the controls and tell them to step on the ball and run them through the landing sequence but it doesn't count for squat.

No Mam, I haven't researched it! Who is the FAA official that told me the answer to this question. If you are refering to Ron, he is not an employee of the FAA. To the best of my knowledge, Ron is a safety counselor which is far from an FAA official. An issue such as this requires me to contact the FAA and get the interpretation from them, not from someone off the internet. But let's not forget that I am a CFI/CFII/MEI, so I can teach anyone any rating that I am rated to teach. However, if this issue comes up at my flight school, I will be able to give an educated answer to the question.

Lastly, I seem to be in a losing situation here regardless of what I do. I am going to do the research and am told that numerous people have given me the answer to the question, but I am accused of wanting to hear an answer that suites me. This could not be further from the truth. I am going to do the right thing and go directly to the people who have the power to interpret and enforce the same regulations they create. The only interpretation that matters is their interpretation, even if it differs from mine. Other than Woodstock, lets see who else can post and say I am wrong for asking the FAA to give me their interpretation of the reg, instead of taking someone elses opinion who is not an FAA official, and unknown to me.

 

[woodstock]

No Mam, I haven't researched it! Who is the FAA official that told me the answer to this question. If you are refering to Ron, he is not an employee of the FAA. To the best of my knowledge, Ron is a safety counselor which is far from an FAA official. An issue such as this requires me to contact the FAA and get the interpretation from them, not from someone off the internet. But let's not forget that I am a CFI/CFII/MEI, so I can teach anyone any rating that I am rated to teach. However, if this issue comes up at my flight school, I will be able to give an educated answer to the question.

Lastly, I seem to be in a losing situation here regardless of what I do. I am going to do the research and am told that numerous people have given me the answer to the question, but I am accused of wanting to hear an answer that suites me. This could not be further from the truth. I am going to do the right thing and go directly to the people who have the power to interpret and enforce the same regulations they create. The only interpretation that matters is their interpretation, even if it differs from mine. Other than Woodstock, lets see who else can post and say I am wrong for asking the FAA to give me their interpretation of the reg, instead of taking someone elses opinion who is not an FAA official, and unknown to me.

well, so if you are basically saying that no one here is capable of giving you the correct answer, then why bother to post the question? surely you hoped for an answer? what other reason would there be for posting the question?

 

[flyifrvfr]

well, so if you are basically saying that no one here is capable of giving you the correct answer, then why bother to post the question? surely you hoped for an answer? what other reason would there be for posting the question?

I never said no one here is capable of giving me the correct answer, so please don't put words into my mouth. You said an FAA official gave me the answer, who is the FAA official? I posted the question to get opinions. I don't mind being wrong, it has happened before. But when it comes down to me being wrong about something, I find out why I am wrong and learn from the situation. My position will change if the FAA's interpretation is different from mine, and I will find their interpretation through my reseach.

 

[Stache]

Is the FAQ still online? i can't seem to find it anymore.

I happen to have FQA part 61 saved as a work document. If you want a copy send me a private e-mail.

Stache

 

[poadeleted20]

You said an FAA official gave me the answer, who is the FAA official?

John Lynch, in AFS-800, is the writer of the information I posted. AFS-800 is the office in Flight Standards which handles Part 61 issues. They are the office that gives the FSDO's the answers to questions like yours. So you already have your answer from the FAA office that handles the question you are asking, just not directly from them. If you want, you can reach Mr. Lynch directly at

: [email protected] ​

Phone: (202) 267-3844