Can I log this as cross country flight time?
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poadeleted20
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The requirement to log XC time for PP/IR/CP-Airplane purposes (your most likely immediate need) is a landing more than 50nm straight-line distance from the original point of departure. Because ONT is not more than 50nm straight-line distance from either of the first two airports, there is no landing more than 50nm from whichever of the first two airports you choose to consider being the OPD for the remainder of the flight. Hence, none of it is XC time for that purpose.
However, because this flight does involve a landing somewhere other than you took off (two landings, actually), you can log the whole thing as plain vanilla XC time. It just doesn't count for any FAA purpose other than the Part 135 500 hour XC requirement to be a PIC under IFR.
So, you'll just have to decide how many XC columns you want in your log. You might consider having one for PP/IR/CP purposes, and another for general XC time, in which case this flight would go in the second but not the first.
However, because this flight does involve a landing somewhere other than you took off (two landings, actually), you can log the whole thing as plain vanilla XC time. It just doesn't count for any FAA purpose other than the Part 135 500 hour XC requirement to be a PIC under IFR.
So, you'll just have to decide how many XC columns you want in your log. You might consider having one for PP/IR/CP purposes, and another for general XC time, in which case this flight would go in the second but not the first.
Oldman
Pre-Flight
I think not. The answer - if it is the answer - is not really in FAR 61.1(b)(3), which was the first place checked. That simply says that the flight has to "include" a point of landing more than 50 miles from point of departure - which your second landing was. "Flight" is undefined by the regs, but "flight time" is defined in FAR 1.1 as commencing when the plane starts moving and ends when it comes to rest after landing.
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poadeleted20
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It says 50nm straight-line distance. The straight-line distance from SMO to ONT is only 42nm. The fact that the total distance flown going SMO-VNY-ONT is over 50nm is irrelevant.
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John Collins
En-Route
You can log it as X/C, but you can't count the flight towards meeting the X/C requirements for a private, commercial, instrument or ATP airplane rating. FAR 61.1 defines the meaning of cross country as:
b) For the purpose of this part:
...
(4) Cross-country time means--
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(4)(ii) through (b)(4)(vi) of this section, time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B ) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under Sec. 61.101(c), time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B ) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(iii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate (except for powered parachute privileges), time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that-
(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(B ) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(iv) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate with powered parachute privileges or a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute category rating, time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that -
(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 15 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(B ) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(v) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under Sec. 61.101(c), time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B ) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B ) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.
(vii) For a military pilot who qualifies for a commercial pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating) under Sec. 61.73 of this part, time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B ) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.
b) For the purpose of this part:
...
(4) Cross-country time means--
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(4)(ii) through (b)(4)(vi) of this section, time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B ) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under Sec. 61.101(c), time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B ) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(iii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate (except for powered parachute privileges), time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that-
(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(B ) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(iv) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate with powered parachute privileges or a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute category rating, time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that -
(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 15 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(B ) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(v) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under Sec. 61.101(c), time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B ) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B ) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.
(vii) For a military pilot who qualifies for a commercial pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating) under Sec. 61.73 of this part, time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B ) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
59 miles is not a requirement for logging cross country. 50 miles is a requirement applying cross country time against the requirements for certain ratings.
As you may recall, there are rules for logging PIC. There are rules for acting as PIC. The rules are not the same. Sometimes you can log, but not act. Sometimes you can act but not log. Sometimes you can do both. Sometimes you can do neither.
Similarly, here are rules for logging cross country. There are rules for applying time toward a rating. The rules are not the same (and vary with the rating). Sometimes you can log, but not apply to a particular rating. Sometimes you can apply the time to a rating but not log it as cross country. Sometimes you can do both. Sometimes you can do neither.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
Easy fix: land at KRAL then go to KONT. You may then legally log it toward training requirements and it will only add a few mins to your flight time
Oldman
Pre-Flight
poadeleted20
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Yes, I did, and for those who missed it, here it is again:
It was to the highlighted phrase which I was responding, although your statement that "The answer - if it is the answer - is not really in FAR 61.1(b)(3)" is correct, although I suspect unintentionally so. It's actually in 61.1(b)(4), specifically subsubparagraph (ii). I suspect you're working off an obsolete version of the FAR's, since that subparagraph was renumbered from (3) to (4) a couple of years ago when they moved the definition of "complex" from 61.31 to 61.1.
Either way, the total miles flown doesn't count for that criterion, only the straight-line distance from the OPD. And the last sentence is about the definition of a flight is irrelevant -- the Chief Counsel already covered the issue of OPD in the VanZanen interpretation.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/2009/Van Zanen.pdf
...although in this case, it doesn't matter, since the landing at ONT is less than 50nm straight-line distance from either SMO or VNY, so making the SMO-VNY flight a "repositioning" flight and VNY-ONT the "cross-country" flight doesn't help.
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Jaybird180
Final Approach
Seems he's more interested in trolling than aviation.
Greg Bockelman
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Greg Bockelman
Ron is correct. The cross country as described in post 1 of this thread does not meet the 50 NM criteria of the regulation for aeronautical experience for any of the ratings.
Oldman
Pre-Flight
Greg Bockelman
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Greg Bockelman
Well, in Ron's post number 11, he highlighted part of your quote that makes it seem differently. There is no leg in the original poster's example that meets the definition of Cross Country for the purposes of applying it to the PPL or CPL.
Just saying.