Can I fly my plane to the buyer?

poadeleted21

poadeleted21

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
Messages
12,332
Since I have my plane on the market, I'm wondering. What are the regs if I agree to fly the plane to the buyer's home 'drome? I'm just a PPL holder. Is there any sort of way the FAA would view this as "compensation"? I could see it being a no-no if I said, $XX,000 if you come get it or $XX,500 if I bring it to you...
 
If the airline ticket or other expenses in getting back home are $500 or more I would suspect there would be no problem.
 
Rusty, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

OK, less sarcasm - adding the costs of delivery to the price of the aircraft is done every day and in no way can be considered charging for your flying services as a Private Pilot...

Jeez, I bet some folks think the FAA hides behind the coat hanger at the corner cafe hoping to catch your passenger paying for your cup of coffee...
 
Nobody, including the FAA, will care until you bend THE BUYERS plane on the delivery flight after he took delivery at the shop that did the pre-buy for him. If otoh you fly YOUR plane to the buyer and you both sign the triplicate there, it offers less potential for complications.
 
No big deal. Nobody's going to care.
 
More than just FAA regs come into play when planes are moved.

If title has passed, it's his plane, his insurance policy on which you may or may not be named or qualify under the open warranty, and his risks of ownership. If something breaks during the delivery, who bears the cost? If the money has not changed hands, how is the seller assured that the buyer will perform?

The parties on larger transactions are very circumspect insofar as "seller flies his airplane to the closing, buyer flies his new airplane home." When trades are closed in tax-free or fly-away states, the seller (or his crew) will not ride in the plane after the sale, even if they are returning to the same place after closing, nor will the buyer ride in the plane on the trip to the closing location. YMMV.
 
What Wayne said. If it's still your airplane, fly it anywhere you want. If it's not your airplane anymore, delivery is not your problem.
 
As-is, where-is would be the way I would go. Sell him the plane and discount half the price of a ferry pilot if you want to or whatever but I would not take the risk of Murphy screwing with me. Too many thing can go wrong.
 
Rusty, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Click to expand...

I know what you mean, Dr.O but I also see how the FAA has made everyone jumpy, looking over their shoulder because of this huge and detailed volume of regulations we are faced with as aviators these days.

It has forced pilots to become very focused on their Rules and less on practical aviation or applied safety, or even just the beauty of flight, imo.

Just look at all the threads on POA and the other aviation sites, regarding The Rules.

I daresay, some enjoy it!
I don't; I think we have lost our direction, at the hands of a bureaucracy.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I know what you mean, Dr.O but I also see how the FAA has made everyone jumpy, looking over their shoulder because of this huge and detailed volume of regulations we are faced with as aviators these days.

It has forced pilots to become very focused on their Rules and less on practical aviation or applied safety, or even just the beauty of flight, imo.

Just look at all the threads on POA and the other aviation sites, regarding The Rules.

I daresay, some enjoy it!
I don't; I think we have lost our direction, at the hands of a bureaucracy.
Click to expand...

The Internet is full of myths and stories that contain a small shred of truth that get spun into tales of woe.

For whatever reason some folks obsess with regulations. Maybe it's a way to make oneself appear superior. On the boating forums you have people that dwell on maritime regulations just the same as folks here that are the self professed "mavens" of aviation regulations.

Most regulations are common sense. Others can be confusing, but aren't so much so for the average human to figure out.

Even though some here will diligently try to convince readers that the FAA is hiding around every corner and just waiting to pounce a private pilot for some trivial violation, it's not true.

Go enjoy flying, be safe and use common sense.
 
alfadog said:
As-is, where-is would be the way I would go. Sell him the plane and discount half the price of a ferry pilot if you want to or whatever but I would not take the risk of Murphy screwing with me. Too many thing can go wrong.
Click to expand...

I resent that!:rofl:
 
give me the keys, I'll fly - paraphrase from weird science. anyway, the way I look at 'the regs' is what would a reasonable person interpret and allow from it. how crazy is the act in relation to the reg. it's just shipping and handling, that's all.
 
RotorAndWing said:
The Internet is full of myths and stories that contain a small shred of truth that get spun into tales of woe.

For whatever reason some folks obsess with regulations. Maybe it's a way to make oneself appear superior. On the boating forums you have people that dwell on maritime regulations just the same as folks here that are the self professed "mavens" of aviation regulations.

Most regulations are common sense. Others can be confusing, but aren't so much so for the average human to figure out.

Even though some here will diligently try to convince readers that the FAA is hiding around every corner and just waiting to pounce a private pilot for some trivial violation, it's not true.

Go enjoy flying, be safe and use common sense.
Click to expand...

While there is a grain of truth to the above post, it must be also noted that the two rouge FAA inspectors who railroaded Bob Hoover were never disciplined.

Do not depend on "common sense" when dealing with the FAA.
 
The regulations (Civil Aviation Regulations) in the 1960's started out as a very small and concise booklet. This is the only source I could find, it says 62 pages.

It has now become an unwieldly legal tome of almost 3 lbs and over 1000 pages including the AIM (which I include as it is part of the problem). This is a 1658% increase! No one could possibly know it all or comply with it.

As a result, I posit that not a single flight happens in the US without some rule being broken. We are regulated to death!

Yes, gains have been made with regulation, no doubts about that.
However do Not try to tell me it has been without cost. Mainly in freedoms. But also in the constant anxiety (such as this thread) it causes in the pilot community.

Lastly and most importantly, there is no end in sight. What limit is on the FAA to make new regulations? Zero.

And their goal? No more accidents. Anyone see a problem here?


I think we must be willing to accept some number of accidents, including associated injury and death as a part of our aviation activity.

Otherwise it will be regulated out of existence and there will be no more general aviation!
 
Regulations increase to make up for the people who seek loopholes to violate the intent of the earlier simpler regulations. The reason for excess regulation is people who want to cheat. Then you get lawyers involved to try to close the loopholes in the rules that pilots wrote to make the system safe. That's when you start generating a CF of regulations. If you want to blame someone about over regulation, blame pilots and operators for willfully violating the prior regulations and getting a buch of people killed; that's what causes the problem, the cheats, those who believe they should be able to do anything they please and put anybody at risk to make a profit.
 
I'm not overly anxious about it, It just popped into my head that If I were delivering a plane, It might be considered carrying cargo for hire. Was really lookin' for a FAR nit-pick.
 
For what it's worth, when I bought my first plane, the seller agreed to fly it to me. After he got there, we executed all agreements and I gave him a suitcase full of small bills (well ok a cashier's check). It was his plane, his insurance, etc. up until we executed the agreements so there was no lapse in coverage.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
As a result, I posit that not a single flight happens in the US without some rule being broken. We are regulated to death!
Click to expand...

I have had this saying for a very long time that the FAA can violate anybody at anytime for anything.

I just do the best I know how and let the chips fall where they may.
 
Sac Arrow said:
For what it's worth, when I bought my first plane, the seller agreed to fly it to me. After he got there, we executed all agreements and I gave him a suitcase full of small bills (well ok a cashier's check). It was his plane, his insurance, etc. up until we executed the agreements so there was no lapse in coverage.
Click to expand...

This is how I would see doing it. Simple, no question in rules. Everybody wins...
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I know what you mean, Dr.O but I also see how the FAA has made everyone jumpy, looking over their shoulder because of this huge and detailed volume of regulations we are faced with as aviators these days.

It has forced pilots to become very focused on their Rules and less on practical aviation or applied safety, or even just the beauty of flight, imo.

Just look at all the threads on POA and the other aviation sites, regarding The Rules.

I daresay, some enjoy it!
I don't; I think we have lost our direction, at the hands of a bureaucracy.
Click to expand...
I would say it's not the FAA which has made people jumpy, it's internet boards!
 
The reason for excess regulation is people who want to cheat.
Click to expand...

OK right, it's all our fault.

I ain't buying it, Henning.
There are people out there who want to micromanage every single gasp of air you take. And they enjoy doing it.
 
Sac Arrow said:
For what it's worth, when I bought my first plane, the seller agreed to fly it to me. After he got there, we executed all agreements and I gave him a suitcase full of small bills (well ok a cashier's check). It was his plane, his insurance, etc. up until we executed the agreements so there was no lapse in coverage.
Click to expand...

If you can do such a face-face transaction, there is no issue, insurance, FAA or otherwise (sales&use tax).

The problem could arise if the transfer of ownership happens prior to the delivery flight. E.g. the buyer only eyeballed the plane at his initial visit and left it to a shop local to the seller to perform a pre-buy. After the pre-buy passes, the price is adjusted etc. money gets transferred and paperwork is walked from the title company to the FAA office. Now it is the buyers plane, and the question as to who pays for the fuel, has which rating etc. becomes a legit one. Again, nobody cares until the #2 cylinder falls off during the delivery flight or the plane goes through a runway light after a botched crosswind landing and nosy FAA inspectors who still have a quota to fill get involved.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
OK right, it's all our fault.

I ain't buying it, Henning.
There are people out there who want to micromanage every single gasp of air you take. And they enjoy doing it.
Click to expand...

Yep, but they require opportunity and public support/outrage/fear in order to actually get the chance, we provide that. If it hadn't been for 'The day the music died' we would not have Part 135.
 
Every plane that I have bought I've had the seller bring it to me for prebuy, etc.. Then I put them on a commercial bird home. It's fun going through security with a flight bag and headsets!
 
N2124v said:
Then I put them on a commercial bird home. It's fun going through security with a flight bag and headsets!
Click to expand...

Never had a problem, I just have to remember to take out the knife and the leatherman tool that typically live in there.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
The regulations (Civil Aviation Regulations) in the 1960's started out as a very small and concise booklet. This is the only source I could find, it says 62 pages.
Click to expand...

I haven't read that book, but I do have at my access all of the historical CAB, CAR, FAA regulations. I can tell you that the CAR's cover a lot more than 62 pages. Here is the CAR list.

Let'sgoflying! said:
It has now become an unwieldly legal tome of almost 3 lbs and over 1000 pages including the AIM (which I include as it is part of the problem). This is a 1658% increase! No one could possibly know it all or comply with it.
Click to expand...

Your math is highly suspect.

Let'sgoflying! said:
As a result, I posit that not a single flight happens in the US without some rule being broken. We are regulated to death!
Click to expand...

Yep. Ever see the EPA regulations? How about state regulations? County regulations? City Codes? How about FDA? FHA? etc, etc, etc.....

When I lived at my old home a few years ago we had a home owners association (gated community). When I moved in the regulations were 6 pages. In comes new HOA President and the regulations go up for "review", then are expanded to 30 pages. Most homeowners voted via "proxy" and weren't concerned until something that affected them came into play.

Let'sgoflying! said:
Yes, gains have been made with regulation, no doubts about that.
However do Not try to tell me it has been without cost. Mainly in freedoms. But also in the constant anxiety (such as this thread) it causes in the pilot community.
Click to expand...

You are not that old. These regulations are essentially the same ones that were in place when you started flying. Where you not aware of these when you started flying? If it was that debilitating to you then as it is now, why did you get involved? What changed?

Let'sgoflying! said:
Lastly and most importantly, there is no end in sight. What limit is on the FAA to make new regulations? Zero.
Click to expand...

Same as any other government agency in the US. Regulations are born from Laws created by Congress and drafted by bureaucrats in various agencies. The apathy of the American voter comes into play here, this is why we have career politicians who write laws at will to further their political ambitions.
 
RotorAndWing said:
I haven't read that book, but I do have at my access all of the historical CAB, CAR, FAA regulations. I can tell you that the CAR's cover a lot more than 62 pages.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I wasn't going there but CAR 0 I remember as a few hundred pages and CAR3 is 30 some. CAR 8 was only 2 IIRC but there's more old CARs than that.
 
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