Can I endorse a CFI candidate for spin training?

[gibbons]

We know that 61.195 (h)(2)(iii) states that the qualifications of the flight instructor for training first-time flight instructor applicants includes: "Have held a flight instructor certificate for at least 24 months."

61.183(i)(1) states that a CFI candidate must "receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry......" (my emphasis)

I read that to be pretty clear. As a new CFI I can't endorse a CFI candidate's logbook for spin proficiency. Is anyone aware of any legal opinion that states otherwise? My plan for now is to conduct the spin training as I would with any pilot wanting spin training, and not endorse the logbook. Unfortunately the candidate would then have to do spin recovery with his/her CFI for the endorsement. Even so, there are a couple of CFI candidates who want more training than they'll get in a 172. It sure would be nice if I could make the endorsement.

Chip

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Chip,

You of all people are infinately more qualified to do spin training than probably 99% of the CFI's out there. Including me. But, I don't know for sure the answer to your question.

The issue of just what an "Authorized Instructor" really means has been tossed around before. I think as a CFI, you are an "Authorized Instructor" in this case. But reading 61.195, I am not sure. I'll bet Ron will give you an accurate answer.

 

[Don Jones]

We know that 61.195 (h)(2)(iii) states that the qualifications of the flight instructor for training first-time flight instructor applicants includes: "Have held a flight instructor certificate for at least 24 months."

61.183(i)(1) states that a CFI candidate must "receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry......" (my emphasis)

I read that to be pretty clear. As a new CFI I can't endorse a CFI candidate's logbook for spin proficiency. Is anyone aware of any legal opinion that states otherwise? My plan for now is to conduct the spin training as I would with any pilot wanting spin training, and not endorse the logbook. Unfortunately the candidate would then have to do spin recovery with his/her CFI for the endorsement. Even so, there are a couple of CFI candidates who want more training than they'll get in a 172. It sure would be nice if I could make the endorsement.

Chip

Thats a Negative Chip, any training done towards a CFI certificate including the spin training has to be done by a two year CFI. The "Authorized Instructor" phrase is what seals it. I was going to do mine before going to Minnesota, and they told me the same thing. I ended up doing it up there with them. I am with Ed, I would rather have done it with you as well, would have been a lot more fun.

Don

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Chip, any instruction recieved which will be applied to the specific requriements for an initial CFI certificate must be provided (signed) by a CFI who meets the 2-year requirement, yada, yada. This requirement includes the spin training.

I'm with Greg--this is one case where the rules and sensible reality diverge. I'd much rather see you offer the spin training than most CFI's I know. For that matter, I would rather have gotten my spin training from you, even before you had the CFI certificate.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Hey Chip, who did the spin training for you for the CFI? And did that person learn more from you than you did from him?

 

[gibbons]

Thanks for the feedback on this. As I thought... it's a no go. Also, thanks for the kind words.

Diana's husband Tom did my spin endorsement in the Citabria. He's forgotten more about flying than I'll ever know.

Chip

 

[Bill]

Chip, any instruction recieved which will be applied to the specific requriements for an initial CFI certificate must be provided (signed) by a CFI who meets the 2-year requirement, yada, yada. This requirement includes the spin training.

Are there any time limits on the spin training endorsement? (ie, you get spin training now, and 10 years from now, want to become a CFI, do you need to repeat the spin training?)

 

[gibbons]

Are there any time limits on the spin training endorsement? (ie, you get spin training now, and 10 years from now, want to become a CFI, do you need to repeat the spin training?)

No, the spin endorsement doesn't time out. However, if I were doing your CFI ride and saw a spin endorsement several years old I'd sure pick that as a topic of discussion during the oral.

Chip

 

[Areeda]

I'm a bit confused as usual. I already have my spin training and my 2 yrs/200 hrs so it's all academic.

Chip can give spin training and endorse a pilot not working for a CFI, right. What if this pilot eventually goes for a CFI is that endorsement still good or does he need to redo it?

Joe

 

[Don Jones]

I'm a bit confused as usual. I already have my spin training and my 2 yrs/200 hrs so it's all academic.

Chip can give spin training and endorse a pilot not working for a CFI, right. What if this pilot eventually goes for a CFI is that endorsement still good or does he need to redo it?

Joe

Joe,
Yes Chip can give spin training as such, however the spin training endorsement
below is the one specifically for the CFI training requirement.

46. Spin training: section 61.183(i)(1).
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of section 61.183(i). I have determined that he/she is competent in instructional skills for training stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures.
/s/ [date] J. J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-05
NOTE: The above spin training endorsement is required of flight instructor applicants for the airplane and glider ratings only.

Don

 

[Areeda]

Thanks Don, that clarifies it. I should have read the endorsement.

Joe

 

[gibbons]

Chip can give spin training and endorse a pilot not working for a CFI, right. What if this pilot eventually goes for a CFI is that endorsement still good or does he need to redo it?

Joe

Joe,

What Don said...

As far as I know there is only one spin endorsement, and that's the one for the CFI ride. I can give spin training and sign your logbook as a CFI giving spin training and dual in the Extra, but I can't endorse your logbook for the CFI ride. At least that's the way I understand it.
Chip

 

[poadeleted20]

As far as I know there is only one spin endorsement, and that's the one for the CFI ride.

Actually, there are two -- one for CFI-Airplane and another for CFI-Glider -- see the "as appropriate" in 61.183(i)(1). You have to get the spin training in each to have both ratings.

I can give spin training and sign your logbook as a CFI giving spin training and dual in the Extra, but I can't endorse your logbook for the CFI ride.

The phrase "endorse your logbook for the CFI ride" sounds more like the 61.183(g) endorsement for the CFI practical test than the 61.183(i) endorsement for the required spin training. Anyway, you can't give either to a first-time CFI applicant until you meet the CFI experience requirements of 61.195(h).

Note however, that the entire above discussion about the experienced CFI requirement applies only to someone endorsing a first-time CFI applicant. Chip can currently give the spin training endorsement and even the practical test endorsement for someone who already holds a CFI ticket with, say, a rotorcraft rating, who is merely adding the airplane rating.

 

[gibbons]

Actually, there are two -- one for CFI-Airplane and another for CFI-Glider

Good point.

The phrase "endorse your logbook for the CFI ride" sounds more like the 61.183(g) endorsement for the CFI practical test than the 61.183(i) endorsement for the required spin training.

Right. I should have said "endorse your logbook for the spin training required for the CFI ride."

Chip