can a vfr pilot file ifr

[roncachamp]

The bottom line is that if you file IFR as a VFR PIC, and there is confusion at any point during the operation, you will have little to no defense should the FAA decide to pursue a violation in this regard. I flew VFR for years with flight following from underneath a busy Class B, and never had an issue with VFR flight plans and/or VFR flight following; if I was dropped by someone, I'd try again further along with a new guy, but I was rarely ever dropped. If someone is concerned about being "in the system," an instrument rating and operating IFR is probably the best way to go.

Bottom line, what FAR would you be accused of violating?

 

[roncachamp]

The letter clearly states that filing shows a stated intent to violate. Operating IFR would trigger the actual violation, but the letter does not specify what event or series of events constitutes "operating."

The letter may state that but it's clearly absurd.

 

[roncachamp]

Attached is the relevant response document.

Specifically, you ask whether a certificated pilot, who does not hold an instrument rating, may file an IFR flight plan using a VFR cruising altitude with the notation "VFR" in the remarks section of the flight plan, provided the pilot intends to alert ATC that the operation will be conducted only under VFR flight following.

Don't file a VFR cruising altitude as the requested altitude, file "VFR", or "VFR/[planned VFR cruising altitude]". For example, if you intend to cruise at 4500 MSL, don't file "45" as the VFR cruising altitude, file "VFR" or "VFR/45". You can then skip "VFR" in the remarks section as the requested altitude makes your intent clear.

Additionally, it's a national standard that terminal facilities do not receive the actual altitude on IFR arrivals, "arrivals" being flights that end in the airspace delegated to the approach control facility. Where an actual altitude would be on an overflight strip an arrival strip just shows "IFR", without regard to what numerical value has been entered as the altitude. So your filed altitude of "45" will be "IFR" on the strip.

 

[azure]

Specifically, you ask whether a certificated pilot, who does not hold an instrument rating, may file an IFR flight plan using a VFR cruising altitude with the notation "VFR" in the remarks section of the flight plan, provided the pilot intends to alert ATC that the operation will be conducted only under VFR flight following.

As Steven points out, this is NOT the technique as it was explained to me and as I practice. I don't put "a VFR cruising altitude" in the altitude block and "VFR" in the remarks section. I put "VFR/<altitude>" in the altitude block. Since I use this technique to avoid having to contact FSS to open/close a VFR flight plan when overflying Canada, I usually put "Canadian overflight" or "Canadian overflight/radar advisories" in the remarks section. If the resulting strip is what a VFR strip looks like to ATC, I don't see how any sane person could construe this practice as showing intent to violate 61.3.

So either JGoodish didn't phrase the question accurately, or the General Counsel's office deliberately sidestepped his original question and answered a subtly but significantly different question. Either way, I don't think we have a clear answer to the question of whether this practice is legal[*], though since according to the letter, accepting an IFR clearance is a necessary condition (though maybe not sufficient) for operating IFR in controlled airspace, there's a very easy way to be certain of not violating 61.3.

If I hear "N828JT, cleared to Victor Lima Lima as filed...", my reply is "Negative, 8JT is VFR."


[*]And please, DON'T write the General Counsel on MY behalf to get this question answered. I really don't want any more limitations by fiat, insane bureaucratic readings-into the existing regulations in the name of ever greater and greater governmental control over what pilots can and can't do, etc., on my account.

 

[azure]

Azure, could you PM me with where and when that seminar is? I'm local to the Cleveland area and might be interested in going to that if im in town. If I can make it I would be more than willing to pick you up from a local airport.

When I went to the registration page, it said that the seminar was filled. So I guess it's all moot...

I do wish they would send these e-mails out earlier. I just received mine last week. That's less than 2 weeks before the seminar.

 

[gprellwitz]

When I went to the registration page, it said that the seminar was filled. So I guess it's all moot...

I do wish they would send these e-mails out earlier. I just received mine last week. That's less than 2 weeks before the seminar.

Yeah, for the Operation Raincheck ones, I find it helpful to actually monitor the website rather than waiting for the e-mail. Monitor the website anyway, because maybe someone will cancel!

 

[azure]

Yeah, for the Operation Raincheck ones, I find it helpful to actually monitor the website rather than waiting for the e-mail. Monitor the website anyway, because maybe someone will cancel!

Oh, definitely. I was even thinking of calling the contact number to see if they take names for a waiting list.

I also determined from Google Maps that the Cleveland Center office is 4.4 mi from LPR, making it... easy bicycling distance through the Ohio countryside.

So one of these times I will make it down there.

 

[danhagan]

Just been watching so far, my question to those doing it:

Regarding: Enter VFR or VFR/altitude on an IFR flight plan in Duat

How exactly do you pick up the FF once airborne?

 

[Sac Arrow]

Just been watching so far, my question to those doing it:

Regarding: Enter VFR or VFR/altitude on an IFR flight plan in Duat

How exactly do you pick up the FF once airborne?

Not sure I completely understand the question, but if you're on a VFR flight plan, that has nothing to do with flight following. The two are not interconnected. On an IFR flight, flight following is irrelevant.

There are a couple recent threads here that discuss how to pick up flight following in the air.

 

[roncachamp]

Just been watching so far, my question to those doing it:

Regarding: Enter VFR or VFR/altitude on an IFR flight plan in Duat

How exactly do you pick up the FF once airborne?

The same way you would had you not entered VFR or VFR/altitude as the requested altitude on an IFR flight plan in DUAT.

 

[gprellwitz]

Just been watching so far, my question to those doing it:

Regarding: Enter VFR or VFR/altitude on an IFR flight plan in Duat

How exactly do you pick up the FF once airborne?

Not sure I completely understand the question, but if you're on a VFR flight plan, that has nothing to do with flight following. The two are not interconnected. On an IFR flight, flight following is irrelevant.

There are a couple recent threads here that discuss how to pick up flight following in the air.

I think the question is going toward the purported technique of entering VFR/altitude in the altitude block of an IFR flight plan as a way to expedite getting VFR advisories (not a VFR flight plan). I haven't done it, and Dan explicitly asked those who are doing it, so I won't answer.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I think the question is going toward the purported technique of entering VFR/altitude in the altitude block of an IFR flight plan as a way to expedite getting VFR advisories (not a VFR flight plan). I haven't done it, and Dan explicitly asked those who are doing it, so I won't answer.

Okay. I see.

 

[azure]

Typically, I call up in pretty much the same way as I would had I not filed a flight plan. Something like,

"Detroit Approach, Cardinal 828JT is off Oakland-Troy at 2000."

As often as not, I'm immediately given a squawk code and told to maintain VFR, cleared into/remain clear of the Bravo, climb to 5500 (or whatever altitude I've put in the altitude block after VFR/) approved. If he only says go ahead, then I continue,

"Cardinal 8JT is 2000 climbing 5500, VFR to 89D. You should have a VFR strip on me."

Other than a couple of times when the controller mistook my strip for a true IFR, things usually go smoothly from there.

 

[azure]

Azure, could you PM me with where and when that seminar is? I'm local to the Cleveland area and might be interested in going to that if im in town. If I can make it I would be more than willing to pick you up from a local airport.

PM sent.

 

[tiger]

I filed IFR frequently under my own name during IR training (my CFI-I was always on board when accepting the subsequent clearance). I wonder if the Chief Counsel would consider me to have been demonstrating 'clear intent to violate the provisions of 61.3(e)'...

I guess I really ought to have been using my CFI-I's name. I didn't bust or damage anything, so it didn't attract any attention.

 

[Palmpilot]

I filed IFR frequently under my own name during IR training (my CFI-I was always on board when accepting the subsequent clearance). I wonder if the Chief Counsel would consider me to have been demonstrating 'clear intent to violate the provisions of 61.3(e)'...

I guess I really ought to have been using my CFI-I's name. I didn't bust or damage anything, so it didn't attract any attention.

I'll start worrying about that when I hear about people being sanctioned for doing it.

 

[tiger]

I'll start worrying about that when I hear about people being sanctioned for doing it.

Agreed. If I did it again I think I'd use the CFI-I's name (after checking with him or her), but it doesn't keep me up at night.

 

[gprellwitz]

Agreed. If I did it again I think I'd use the CFI-I's name (after checking with him or her), but it doesn't keep me up at night.

That's probably a good summary. Go forth and sin no more!