Can a city force skydiving off a municipal airport?

Jay Honeck said:
Chip wasn't talking about what's going on in Port A. His example was for another skydiving situation in another city.
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I'm lost in the shuffle, so I'll leave it at this: If the issue is a club being unwilling or unable to either pay the same set rate for its facility as every other tenant on the airport, or abide by reasonable and uniformly applied standards of safety and operation, they're pretty well hosed. If the issue is a targeted effort to drive the club off via unreasonable requirements, or requirements not applied to other operators, call the ADO for help.
 
Bob Noel said:
Would this still be true if the "commercial standards" policy is clearly intended to drive out that particular operation or specific operator?
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No. The standards must be reasonable, appropriate, and uniformly applied. However, proving such intent isn't the easiest thing in the world. If you think the standards are either unreasonable or being applied to some but not others, call the ADO for help.
 
Bob Noel said:
Would this still be true if the "commercial standards" policy is clearly intended to drive out that particular operation or specific operator?
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You can't write a policy: No skydiving or 'every skydiving drop requires prior written approval by the airport manager'.

You can write a policy: Any provider of aeronautical services on smalltown airport has to provide proof of a commercial liability policy in the amount of $5mil aggregate 1mil per incident every six months. The airport and the city of smalltown has to be named as additional insured on the policy.

The result would be the same.
 
SCCutler said:
Ben, that's the Agenda for the Airport Advisory Board. If the airport issues did not dominate the Agenda, it would be odd. Of course, the AAB is an advisory-only organization.
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My bad.......
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm lost in the shuffle, so I'll leave it at this: If the issue is a club being unwilling or unable to either pay the same set rate for its facility as every other tenant on the airport, or abide by reasonable and uniformly applied standards of safety and operation, they're pretty well hosed. If the issue is a targeted effort to drive the club off via unreasonable requirements, or requirements not applied to other operators, call the ADO for help.
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There is no other commercial operation at the airport, and no written policy.

Yet.
 
Dr. O said:
3. The guys on the ground unfurl the orange X closing the airport, then completely forget to furl it back up after the jumpers are on the ground leaving the airport in legal limbo... I circled the airport for over 20 minutes one day trying to get someone on the radio to go out and roll up the X so I could land legally... No joy... I sent the skydivers a bill for 20 minutes of fuel burn, no joy there either...
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I have been on both side of the issue. I skydived for 4 years before deciding flying the plane is more fun than jumping out. I don't understand the orange X closing the airport. Never heard of an airport being closed for jumping except during an airshow. I wouldn't think the drop zone has the authority to close a runway.

Ryan
 
I was at KRMN this weekend and noticed a sign saying that ultralight activity was prohibited. What's the deal with that?
 
Dr. O said:
They need to go... Airports and skydivers do not mix well...

denny-o
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I find skydivers to be a breath of fresh air at our moribund airports. They truly are the only signs of life nowadays -- unless you count the occasional upper-middle-aged white guy flying away in a 35 year old spam can as a sign of "life".

Jumpers bring a youthful enthusiasm that we sorely need in GA. I wish there were more of them.
 
weilke said:
You can't write a policy: No skydiving or 'every skydiving drop requires prior written approval by the airport manager'.

You can write a policy: Any provider of aeronautical services on smalltown airport has to provide proof of a commercial liability policy in the amount of $5mil aggregate 1mil per incident every six months. The airport and the city of smalltown has to be named as additional insured on the policy.

The result would be the same.
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A small club cannot purchase $5M policy. No insurance underwriter will write a policy. Small clubs do not purchase commercial insurance.

Local County Aviation authority attempted to require everyone, all private aircraft to carry $2M liability and $500K per seat. A 1000hr owner pilot in a Decathlon cannot purchase a $2M policy. County did not understand the availability of insurance available to the average pilot.
 
BillTIZ said:
A small club cannot purchase $5M policy. No insurance underwriter will write a policy. Small clubs do not purchase commercial insurance.

Local County Aviation authority attempted to require everyone, all private aircraft to carry $2M liability and $500K per seat. A 1000hr owner pilot in a Decathlon cannot purchase a $2M policy. County did not understand the availability of insurance available to the average pilot.
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Yep, in 2008 Iowa City tried to pull this 2M liability requirement on the American Barnstormer's Tour, as well as on others who were hawking rides at the airport.

It never occurred to them that the number they had pulled out of their collective asses was unattainable. The issue was unresolved when the Great Flood of 2008 forced the Barnstormers to skip over Iowa City -- but at the time most (if not all) of the participants were planning to ignore the city's requirement, as they were the ONLY city on the 20-plus-city tour to have such a stipulation. :mad2:

Iowa City -- for all of its reputation as a party town (due to the University) is a VERY uptight city. They would not allow the Barnstormers to have a hangar dance at the airport, because beer and wine were to be served -- and "no alcohol is allowed on city property."

THAT brought a big chuckle from us hangar tenants -- most of whom had a full bar or at least a fridge full of beer in the hangar! :lol:
 
BillTIZ said:
A small club cannot purchase $5M policy. No insurance underwriter will write a policy. Small clubs do not purchase commercial insurance.
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That is why I said:

The result would be the same.
 
I find it very difficult to believe a city-especially in this economy-would want to limit airport operations.* Especially in a locale like SPI. The airport is an asset-we know that-but the city needs to be made aware of what they could do with it. An airport day works well. So do monthly fly-ins, cook offs, etc. The idea is to not only inform the city what could be but to also make a public presence. Make the airport a venue for regularly scheduled events.

*Of course I am aware of when a city wants to limit operations towards a covert goal of closing the airport. I haven't gotten the feeling that is the case here.

EDIT: Port A is not SPI. BTW: Does Tejas (Steve P) still fly billboards out of there?
 
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Dr. O said:
We had the skydivers at our field for years - decades actually... Constant conflict... They finally got angry with us and moved... Long story short they wore out their welcome at every airport they went to over a 15 year period and are now back haunting us...
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Sorry to hear that - not all operations are like that. I fly the jump plane every now and then for a local op.
Dr. O said:
1. They drive all over the airport/taxiways in their cars... They are not pilots and do not have the sense of safety we do... Manager every spring has to go chase them down and once more give them the lecture to go straight to the skydive hangar and NOT drive around...
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Never seen any issues with that. People stay away from the taxiway / runways unless they have a really good reason.
Dr. O said:
2. Loud and raucous when they come charging into the pilots lounge to use the facilities - and bathe in the bathroom... Faint odor of pot and poo wafting in their wake...
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Oh come on. If that were the case I doubt they'd be doing many tandems and tandem jumps are what keep most ops in business.
Dr. O said:
3. The guys on the ground unfurl the orange X closing the airport, then completely forget to furl it back up after the jumpers are on the ground leaving the airport in legal limbo... I circled the airport for over 20 minutes one day trying to get someone on the radio to go out and roll up the X so I could land legally... No joy... I sent the skydivers a bill for 20 minutes of fuel burn, no joy there either...
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Kind of odd to close the airport. That's not really standard at most drop zones. Why does the airport manager require them to do so?

Aircraft can be in the pattern and divers can be diving into the middle of the airport all at once.
Dr. O said:
4. They talk to ATC an an airport 13 miles away because they are in their airspace at 12,500, then pop over to our unicom and make ONE announcement of divers away in 2 minutes and that is the last you hear of them - the pilot flat out refuses to answer radio calls inquiring if the divers are away yet, telling us he is too busy... More than one VFR pilot has had a meat bomb go hurtling past his windscreen over the years...
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I have to talk to an ATC facility that is about 20 miles away. I'm doing that while I'm flying an airplane with 80 mph wind rushing through the cockpit, while looking for traffic issues, trying to fly the jump run, and talk on the radio at the same time. I don't spend much time on the local CTAF either - I can't - I have to get back to ATC. You'll get a warning a few minutes away and one when I kick them out the door. Deal with it. It's not that big of a deal. Jumpers don't really consume much airspace. They land ON THE AIRPORT and I can safely boot them out the door from 10,000 AGL with aircraft in the area or in the pattern. I've never had a local pilot complain and I will hold jumpers if I can't get a visual or figure out wtf they're doing.

Keep in mind while you're sitting there whining about how I won't have a long conversation with you on the radio I'm flying a 182 with 4 fat people hanging on the strut, trying to keep the thing from rolling inverted, descending at 2000 FPM at full throttle with an 80 mph wind rushing through the cockpit. There isn't much to talk about the divers are jumping, the airport was notamed, and it's not a big deal or inconvenience for you.

Dr. O said:
5. The divers crash onto the airport hitting airplanes (lost teeth), blew into the side of a hangar (ditto), bounced off the roof of a hangar (broken leg), went skidding into the open door of a hangar (no injury), wrecked the wind sock (bruises and bloody)... Nobody dares to leave an airplane sitting outside on jump weekends...
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I've sure never heard of someone afraid to leave their airplane on the ramp when jump operations are in progress. Yes sometimes someone will bang themselves up a bit. Yes maybe every 20 years someone might get killed. But we pilots don't do much better and we pilots get killed at airports too.
Dr. O said:
6. Two dead in separate incidents over the years - one splattered on the runway, the other on a sugar beet field next door... The same sugar beet field totally destroyed one jumpers tibia ( multiple pieces) when he landed on a semi frozen beet left behind by the harvester machine...
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Accidents happen. How many people killed in airplanes around there?
Dr. O said:
7. One C-180 nearly totaled when the jump instructor had his chute open inside the cabin jerking him out the door in an eyeblink - right horizontal tailplane folded under... Pilot landed it - said it was like wrestling a boa constrictor...
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There are risks and there is a reason the pilot is wearing a parachute. If I lose the horizontal stab I'll become a skydiver in a hurry.

Dr. O said:
They need to go... Airports and skydivers do not mix well...

denny-o
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I think not. The drop zones keep many airports in business. Where do you expect them to go? By that analogy airports and cities don't mix. Those airports need to go.

Drop zones drive business to airports and burn a lot of avgas.
 
I've been handing this advice to Jay for years and somehow it always is "I'm too busy" or "I don't have the time" or some other lame excuse.

I did it for eight years while running a booming avionics business. You CAN do it if you will just put personal interest aside and do it.

Run. Run for the City Council. Get your oar in the water. Swing the bat from your heels. You aren't fighting City Hall any more, you ARE City Hall. GET INVOLVED, even if it means you lose the first election, there is another one four years later.

Kwitcherbitchin and do something about it rather than kvetching in the newsgroups.

Sheesh.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
I've been handing this advice to Jay for years and somehow it always is "I'm too busy" or "I don't have the time" or some other lame excuse.

I did it for eight years while running a booming avionics business. You CAN do it if you will just put personal interest aside and do it.

Run. Run for the City Council. Get your oar in the water. Swing the bat from your heels. You aren't fighting City Hall any more, you ARE City Hall. GET INVOLVED, even if it means you lose the first election, there is another one four years later.

Kwitcherbitchin and do something about it rather than kvetching in the newsgroups.
Sheesh.

Jim
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:thumbsup:
 
When I had my aviation business I ran afoul of the local airport manager and city commission that decided since I wasn't one of the local "good 'ol boys" I shouldn't have my business "on their airport". Since most people don't know how FAA funding and what "Grant Assurances" are they simply believe the city "owned" the airport and therefore could write their own rules at will.

I proved them wrong.

All it took was some education, research and a will to get involved and stand my ground. I attended every airport board meeting and city council meeting (and even video taped them) demanded every piece of paperwork, memo's, correspondence and emails produced by the city on the subject (Florida has a Sunshine Law and all records are open to the public).

Eventually I won. And along the way, I was an AOPA member and asked AOPA to get involved. They declined and told me "This is a commercial business and we don't get involved" even though it pertained to a federally funded airport and the rights of aircraft owners to, among other things service and maintain their own aircraft (the airport manager was trying to get an ordinance forbidding aircraft owners from servicing their own airplanes among other things).

After I won, after expending my own funds for legal expenses then the AOPA wanted to get involved and try to get credit. I sent them my AOPA membership card and after 20+ years of membership and suggested what they could do with it.
 
weirdjim said:
I've been handing this advice to Jay for years and somehow it always is "I'm too busy" or "I don't have the time" or some other lame excuse.

I did it for eight years while running a booming avionics business. You CAN do it if you will just put personal interest aside and do it.

Run. Run for the City Council. Get your oar in the water. Swing the bat from your heels. You aren't fighting City Hall any more, you ARE City Hall. GET INVOLVED, even if it means you lose the first election, there is another one four years later.

Kwitcherbitchin and do something about it rather than kvetching in the newsgroups.

Sheesh.

Jim
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Some day, Jim. Some day. When I'm working less than 80 hours/7 days/365, I'll be in the front lines with ya.

As it stands, I've got to move heaven and earth just to be able to attend the city council meeting tomorrow night. I missed the airport board meeting last week, when my desk gal needed to attend her son's basketball game at the last minute, and I ended up working. (It IS the playoffs, after all... :rolleyes:)
 
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