Can a city force skydiving off a municipal airport?

Jay Honeck

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jay Honeck
Our local City Council is making noise about booting the skydiving operation off of our airport. Apparently the folks who run this operation have riled some of the old money at the airport in ways and for reasons that I have not been able to discern.

The upset folks are airport tenants, however, in positions of influence around town -- and they clearly have a burr under their saddles about sky-diving. I've never had a problem with the jumpers, the aircraft, or the traffic -- but others apparently have.

I was under the impression that if an airport is a public use facility, they could not ban legal commercial operations. True?

Anyone with experience in something like this?
 
There was an attempt to shut down skydivers at the airport I fly out of. Bottom line is that if the airport has ever taken any Federal grant money for improvements, then the airport may not discriminate against any FAA approved aviation activities. The city would have to show the activity is a safety hazard. Is the drop zone near the field?

Here's one story on it:
http://special.registerguard.com/turin/2009/aug/15/creswell-may-miss-faa-deadline/

Story I heard from locals is that one of the two skydiving operators had some some conflict with another flight in the pattern that had a CFI and student on board. Unpleasant words were exchanged (skydiving pilot filed a complaint against the CFI with the FAA or something like that. Complaint never yielded anything except more animosity.) Things escalated from there, till city decided to ban skydiving. In the end the drop zone got moved, but slydiving wasn't banned per se.
 
Jim Logajan said:
There was an attempt to shut down skydivers at the airport I fly out of. Bottom line is that if the airport has ever taken any Federal grant money for improvements, then the airport may not discriminate against any FAA approved aviation activities. The city would have to show the activity is a safety hazard. Is the drop zone near the field?
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The drop zone is on the beach, roughly 1/2 mile from the airport.
 
Jay Honeck said:
The drop zone is on the beach, roughly 1/2 mile from the airport.
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That might be close enough to irritate some people. If the airport has accepted FAA grant money, then the best they might be able to do is wear the skydiving operation down by various actions or getting the drop zone moved, but they couldn't ban them.

Sounds like from this story that a few years ago they had just gotten funding only from Texas DOT and were only then just looking to get grant money from the feds: http://visitorsguide.portasouthjetty.com/node/2768
 
Frederick Municipal (KFDK) is pushing the glider ops out of the airport. The FAA even approved $1 million for a grass runway to be built. The runway was built but is now only useful if you have an emergency. Management doesn't want anyone on it. The lease for the hangar isn't expected to be renewed this year so the airport might win. I expect the same is true for skydiving. If you greet your neighbor with a shotgun, pitbull, and gang of thugs, they will eventually move.
 
This is what happens when beauacrats run businesses. We have a very nice airport here. We have received millions in Fed tax dollars, much for essential air service in Alabama of all places. We don't even have maintenance here. We have had a couple in the past but, no one can pay the fees and stay in business. There only concern here is essential air service money and gate and fences to keep out terrorists. If the beauacrats want the skydiving gone, they will be gone.
More and more local governments are discovering the money from grants and are anxious take over the airports. The FAA needs to make it illegal for any government entity to operate a business at a federally funded airport. FBO's need to be private with competition. If the governments want to oversee the scamming of tax money, OK. They should not be selling goods and services. IMO
 
I know it has happened twice to one skydiving company in Missouri. The City of Sullivan booted the one there out and they moved to Bowling Green. Then the City of Bowling Green gave them the boot a few years later, so I would say "Yes" to your question.
 
Dean said:
I know it has happened twice to one skydiving company in Missouri. The City of Sullivan booted the one there out and they moved to Bowling Green. Then the City of Bowling Green gave them the boot a few years later, so I would say "Yes" to your question.
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Is that the outfit that kept crashing their planes ?

Some airports love skydivers. Many 'movements', plenty of flowage fees and allways a supply of scantily dressed girls to gawk at.
 
recently the county booted gliders off Hemet airport in CA. since it was illegal the soaring club there filed an appeal and has recently been allowed to return. Guess it depends on if the skydivers there just want to roll over or fight.
 
There are a number of ways airport management can force an operation off an airport while remaining in compliance with the FAA Airport Compliance Manual. The two most common are to establish safety standards which the operator doesn't meet but aren't unreasonable, or to establish reasonable operating rules for businesses on the airport. In some cases, mere enforcement of state/local business laws will do the job. These methods work well to get rid of fly-by-nighters. However, if the operation is well-run and uses good business practices, it's a lot harder to get rid of them.
 
The city has the money, time, resources, the guns, whatever. There is an old adage; "You can not fight city hall."

John
 
bigblockz8 said:
Frederick Municipal (KFDK) is pushing the glider ops out of the airport. The FAA even approved $1 million for a grass runway to be built. The runway was built but is now only useful if you have an emergency. Management doesn't want anyone on it. The lease for the hangar isn't expected to be renewed this year so the airport might win. I expect the same is true for skydiving. If you greet your neighbor with a shotgun, pitbull, and gang of thugs, they will eventually move.
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I don't think this is as nefarious as you make it sound. My understanding is that the club had a sweetheart deal on a land lease, because they built their own hangars. When the FAA came up with airport grant money, part of the deal from the feds was that all users had to pay market rents, including the club and the state police ops. Now the club is looking at a huge increase that may end up running them off.

I don't think there is anything personal here.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
I don't think this is as nefarious as you make it sound. My understanding is that the club had a sweetheart deal on a land lease, because they built their own hangars. When the FAA came up with airport grant money, part of the deal from the feds was that all users had to pay market rents, including the club and the state police ops. Now the club is looking at a huge increase that may end up running them off.

I don't think there is anything personal here.
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These are all good points......
Then there is the FBO in New Braunfels, Texas that is fighting with the city over fuel sales....... I wonder how that ever turned out ?:dunno::dunno::dunno:

Ben.
 
N801BH said:
These are all good points......
Then there is the FBO in New Braunfels, Texas that is fighting with the city over fuel sales....... I wonder how that ever turned out ?:dunno::dunno::dunno:

Ben.
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Last time we flew into New Braunfels we made sure to park on their side of the airport. They had no fuel -- the city had shut 'em down -- and they were literally surviving on the sale of candy bars and donations in a jar.

It was very sad.
 
Ron Levy said:
There are a number of ways airport management can force an operation off an airport while remaining in compliance with the FAA Airport Compliance Manual. The two most common are to establish safety standards which the operator doesn't meet but aren't unreasonable, or to establish reasonable operating rules for businesses on the airport. In some cases, mere enforcement of state/local business laws will do the job. These methods work well to get rid of fly-by-nighters. However, if the operation is well-run and uses good business practices, it's a lot harder to get rid of them.
Click to expand...

This sky-diving operation seems to be extremely well-run. The owner is a graduate of the Air Force Academy, and still flies C-17s to Guam once in a while. Their hangar is neat, and their safety standards appear to be very high.

I am at a loss to explain why some folks are trying to drive them out. His planes represent over 10% of the fuel sales at the airport, and he has AT MOST two or three jumpers per hour in the peak season.

We have never had a conflict with any of their planes or jumpers, and they are the ONLY commercial activity at the airport. There is no FBO, no maintenance, no avionics -- just a building with a bathroom in it -- so it's nice that SOMETHING is going on at our airport.

From my end, they represent an excellent source of revenue. Jumpers often are not pilots, but they are aviation enthusiasts -- and they need a place to stay. We've picked up several of them for overnight stays, and I expect this relationship to grow.

The only thing I can think of is that someone in town wants to buy the hangar they're in (they are all privately owned, and in extremely short supply, so rents are insanely high), and they can't get it until their business is destroyed. Nothing else seems to make sense, so, when in doubt, follow the money.

Mary and I will be attending the City Council meeting this week, to see what's going on. It never ceases to amaze me how airports can be such an irritant to so many people. No matter where I live, it's always the same story.
 
weilke said:
Is that the outfit that kept crashing their planes ?

Some airports love skydivers. Many 'movements', plenty of flowage fees and allways a supply of scantily dressed girls to gawk at.
Click to expand...
Quantum Leap was the company that had the crash of the twin otter, the city of Sullivan was named in the law suit along with anybody that could be tied in. The company that came in after that didn't get their lease renewed, because the city was afraid of being named in another suit. They then moved to Bowling Green where they had an incident where a jumper was killed and the city of Bowling Green was named in the law suit.
 
Seen this a bunch. Technically the city can't toss them if they are taking federal money. But if they toss em the fight takes a while and of course the city has many means of hassling them to death. The national org USPA occasionally takes up the fight for DZs and provides resources, might want to check with the owners and see if they are onboard. Heck call USPA yourself tell em you don't jump but like the local jumpers and don't want to see them gone.
 
Dean said:
Quantum Leap was the company that had the crash of the twin otter, the city of Sullivan was named in the law suit along with anybody that could be tied in. The company that came in after that didn't get their lease renewed, because the city was afraid of being named in another suit. They then moved to Bowling Green where they had an incident where a jumper was killed and the city of Bowling Green was named in the law suit.
Click to expand...

You see a trend here ?

I was actually thinking of a different outfit in Bowling Green. I dont think they ever had any fatals but they went through a couple of planes in the early nineties.
 
Jay Honeck said:
This sky-diving operation seems to be extremely well-run. The owner is a graduate of the Air Force Academy, and still flies C-17s to Guam once in a while. Their hangar is neat, and their safety standards appear to be very high.
Click to expand...
If that is true, then it's unlikely any action to "boot them off your airport" will survive legal challenge. If you're seriously concerned, notify the FAA Airport Certification Office about the impending action so they can get involved early, including educating the City Council about the limits of their authority and the FAA's ability to punish failure to abide by grant agreements.
 
Ron Levy said:
I If you're seriously concerned, notify the FAA Airport Certification Office about the impending action so they can get involved early, including educating the City Council about the limits of their authority and the FAA's ability to punish failure to abide by grant agreements.
Click to expand...

Since there's no such thing as a Airport Certification Office one may want to contact the local ADO (Airport District Office). :rolleyes:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/arp/regional_offices/
 
Jay Honeck said:
Last time we flew into New Braunfels we made sure to park on their side of the airport. They had no fuel -- the city had shut 'em down -- and they were literally surviving on the sale of candy bars and donations in a jar.

It was very sad.
Click to expand...

They also have most of the hangars and hail sheds on that side of the airport. Plus they own the flight school out there.
 
Ron Levy said:
If that is true, then it's unlikely any action to "boot them off your airport" will survive legal challenge. If you're seriously concerned, notify the FAA Airport Certification Office about the impending action so they can get involved early, including educating the City Council about the limits of their authority and the FAA's ability to punish failure to abide by grant agreements.
Click to expand...

According to Chip Sylverne further up, it is actually the ADO that is driving this by requiring the airport to charge the same land-lease rates to all its tenants.

Before running to the goverment and before making a fool of myself at the city council meeting, I would talk to the president of the skydiving outfit to find out what the whole thing is about. Having the support of local businesses that derive secondary benefits from the presence of the dropzone could be very helpful when it comes to convincing the city leaders to give them a fair deal.
 
weilke said:
According to Chip Sylverne further up, it is actually the ADO that is driving this by requiring the airport to charge the same land-lease rates to all its tenants.
Click to expand...
So it's not some nefarious City Council plot to single out the jump club and run them off, but rather the club's inability or unwillingness to pay the same market price for the facility they occupy as the other airport tenants pay for their facilities?

Thank you for that clarification. In that case, I don't see any point in whining to the ADO.
 
John Baker said:
The city has the money, time, resources, the guns, whatever. There is an old adage; "You can not fight city hall."

John
Click to expand...
I've fought "city hall" on a couple of occasions and won (sort of). Citys often do things that aren't legal but they can get away with it if no one stands up to them. Of course it helps when the city's own attorney tells them they were wrong.
 
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Ron Levy said:
So it's not some nefarious City Council plot to single out the jump club and run them off, but rather the club's inability or unwillingness to pay the same market price for the facility they occupy as the other airport tenants pay for their facilities?

Thank you for that clarification. In that case, I don't see any point in whining to the ADO.
Click to expand...

About 12 seconds of google-fu brought up the agenda for the 12/6/2011 meeting of the airport board.

http://www.cityofportaransas.org/pdf/Airport Agenda 12-6-2011.doc.pdf

Looks like various fees relating to the skydiving operation were on the agenda. As it is now too late to sit in on this pubic meeting, I would try to get a copy of the minutes or talk to someone who attended to meeting to get a better idea about the issue.
 
Wow... 6 A through G plus 7 on the agenda...... That airport must be a bigger deal in that town then I thought...:yesnod::yesnod:

Ben.
 
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Jay Honeck said:
Our local City Council is making noise about booting the skydiving operation off of our airport. Apparently the folks who run this operation have riled some of the old money at the airport in ways and for reasons that I have not been able to discern.

The upset folks are airport tenants, however, in positions of influence around town -- and they clearly have a burr under their saddles about sky-diving. I've never had a problem with the jumpers, the aircraft, or the traffic -- but others apparently have.

I was under the impression that if an airport is a public use facility, they could not ban legal commercial operations. True?

Anyone with experience in something like this?
Click to expand...

Unless the city wants to repay ALL of the federal funds they have received from the FAA they cannot kick the jumpers out. Sky Diving is considered an aviation activity and as such is protected under the terms of the agreement the city signed for improvements. Only radio controlled airplanes are not included as aviation activities.

I suggest you call the legal dept of EAA and they will send you FAR chapter and verse that you can lay I front of the airport authority and watch them turn white. Been there done that when my airport would not allow untralights on the field. Ultralites are considered aviation also. ;)
 
There used to be sky diving operations at VGT before the extra runways were built. The jump zone was about 5 miles away. VGT is tucked in pretty close to down town. The County Aviation Authority built up a remote airport for "Sport Aviation" and moved the jumpers off airport to Jean NV.

Two parralle runways, busy traffic, glider operations (can't wait outside the airport area if a jump in progress) so the jump zone is off airport about 4 miles away.

Jump zone on the beach is great for marketing, but 1/2 mile from the airport is too close to the traffic pattern unless you can keep all air traffic downwind on the non beach non jump zone side.
 
The easiest way to force skydiving operations off the airport is to include them in your 'commercial standards' policy and to require the same level of insurance required from an FBO. Many of the smaller outfits operate without insurance. All the griping to the ADO is not going to help as long as the rules are the same as for any other commercial tenant.
 
Ron Levy said:
So it's not some nefarious City Council plot to single out the jump club and run them off, but rather the club's inability or unwillingness to pay the same market price for the facility they occupy as the other airport tenants pay for their facilities?

Thank you for that clarification. In that case, I don't see any point in whining to the ADO.
Click to expand...

Chip wasn't talking about what's going on in Port A. His example was for another skydiving situation in another city.
 
weilke said:
About 12 seconds of google-fu brought up the agenda for the 12/6/2011 meeting of the airport board.

http://www.cityofportaransas.org/pdf/Airport Agenda 12-6-2011.doc.pdf

Looks like various fees relating to the skydiving operation were on the agenda. As it is now too late to sit in on this pubic meeting, I would try to get a copy of the minutes or talk to someone who attended to meeting to get a better idea about the issue.
Click to expand...

The meeting is this Thursday, December 15th.
 
N801BH said:
Wow... 6 A through G plus 7 on the agenda...... That airport must be a bigger deal in that town then I thought...:yesnod::yesnod:

Ben.
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Ben, that's the Agenda for the Airport Advisory Board. If the airport issues did not dominate the Agenda, it would be odd. Of course, the AAB is an advisory-only organization.
 
weilke said:
The easiest way to force skydiving operations off the airport is to include them in your 'commercial standards' policy and to require the same level of insurance required from an FBO. Many of the smaller outfits operate without insurance. All the griping to the ADO is not going to help as long as the rules are the same as for any other commercial tenant.
Click to expand...

Would this still be true if the "commercial standards" policy is clearly intended to drive out that particular operation or specific operator?
 
weilke said:
According to Chip Sylverne further up, it is actually the ADO that is driving this by requiring the airport to charge the same land-lease rates to all its tenants.

deal.
Click to expand...

Whoa, whoa time out. I was talking about he soaring club at FDK. I know nothing about the TX skydiving op.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Whoa, whoa time out. I was talking about he soaring club at FDK. I know nothing about the TX skydiving op.
Click to expand...

Sorry, didn't catch that the discussion had wandered 1000 miles north.
 
We had the skydivers at our field for years - decades actually... Constant conflict... They finally got angry with us and moved... Long story short they wore out their welcome at every airport they went to over a 15 year period and are now back haunting us...
1. They drive all over the airport/taxiways in their cars... They are not pilots and do not have the sense of safety we do... Manager every spring has to go chase them down and once more give them the lecture to go straight to the skydive hangar and NOT drive around...
2. Loud and raucous when they come charging into the pilots lounge to use the facilities - and bathe in the bathroom... Faint odor of pot and poo wafting in their wake...
3. The guys on the ground unfurl the orange X closing the airport, then completely forget to furl it back up after the jumpers are on the ground leaving the airport in legal limbo... I circled the airport for over 20 minutes one day trying to get someone on the radio to go out and roll up the X so I could land legally... No joy... I sent the skydivers a bill for 20 minutes of fuel burn, no joy there either...
4. They talk to ATC an an airport 13 miles away because they are in their airspace at 12,500, then pop over to our unicom and make ONE announcement of divers away in 2 minutes and that is the last you hear of them - the pilot flat out refuses to answer radio calls inquiring if the divers are away yet, telling us he is too busy... More than one VFR pilot has had a meat bomb go hurtling past his windscreen over the years...
5. The divers crash onto the airport hitting airplanes (lost teeth), blew into the side of a hangar (ditto), bounced off the roof of a hangar (broken leg), went skidding into the open door of a hangar (no injury), wrecked the wind sock (bruises and bloody)... Nobody dares to leave an airplane sitting outside on jump weekends...
6. Two dead in separate incidents over the years - one splattered on the runway, the other on a sugar beet field next door... The same sugar beet field totally destroyed one jumpers tibia ( multiple pieces) when he landed on a semi frozen beet left behind by the harvester machine...
7. One C-180 nearly totaled when the jump instructor had his chute open inside the cabin jerking him out the door in an eyeblink - right horizontal tailplane folded under... Pilot landed it - said it was like wrestling a boa constrictor...

They need to go... Airports and skydivers do not mix well...

denny-o
 
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