Calculating Actual IFR Time

kontiki

kontiki

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Kontiki
I filed and flew 150 nm X-CTRY last weekend. Nice layers of cirrus clouds BKN-OVC-SCT varying anywhere from 2000 (takeoff) FL40 to FL60. I filed and flew in, above and below the clouds in the course for the flight, landed using visual approaches.

It was my first time in VFR above a solid cloud deck (I thought it really was awesome).

It was a great flight, I learned a lot, had a great time, felt recharged.

Time in the clouds was probably less than 40% of total flight time, but impossible to track. I was in and out and through and between clouds at cruising alt in both directions.

So how much time should I call actual IFR in my logbook?
 
You should log your actual instrument time as your best estimate of the time you NEEDED the instruments to keep the airplane upright and on course. You don't have to be in a cloud to need the instruments. If you think it was less than 40%, then log whatever percentage you think it was.
 
Well, that is more of a religious question than a technical one and I am sure that a mob of firebrand wielding acolytes will be searching for me after reading my opinion......

Since you were flying under an IFR plan and under positive control by ATC and you were required at all times to maintain altitude and heading to IFR standards it is all IFR time... WHether you were in or out of a cloud is not relevant...

For instance, when on final approach you break out of the clouds and visually acquire the runway you do not suddenly become a VFR flight... This is a 'gotcha' that has bit more than one pilot... If the airport is IFR then no matter how well you can see you are required to maintain the IFR flight plan until you are on the ground and off the active runway...

The FAA takes a different view of logging hours than does the pilot community... For instance logging of PIC... PIC time begins when you preflight the aircraft with the intent to commit flight.. The PIC time ends when the aircraft is shut down and secured from that flight... It is not just the act of pushing and pulling on the yoke that is PIC... And PIC time for that flight is not determined by the Hobbs (which is not even mentioned in the regs)...

We tend to carry the training environment over into PIC, where in the training environment the actual time spent pushing and pulling on the yoke is carefully recorded - for logical reasons...

So, light up those faggots and declare religious purity - I can take the heat...

denny-o
 
Well, if you want to log IFR time you can log all the time you were operating under IFR.

That's DIFFERENT than logging ACTUAL INSTRUMENT time, which has a specific definition under FAR 1.

And flight time has a specific definition as well, starting when the airplane begins to move for the purpose of flight. I've never seen any rationale for including preflight inspection in the PIC time column (which would result in the PIC time being longer than the flight time).
 
i agree with Tim. The FAA has clarified this consistently. The "instrument time" is defined in the regs as flight operated solely by instruments in actual or simulated instrument conditions. The FAA is quite lenient in their interpretation that "actual instrument conditions" means any flight conditions that oblige you to use the instruments, not necessarily less than VFR. Dark nights, hazy days, between layers, etc... may qualify.

Bopping around on IFR plan on a CAVU day does not.
 
Tim's explanation is what I do as well.
 
Dr. O said:
Well, that is more of a religious question than a technical one and I am sure that a mob of firebrand wielding acolytes will be searching for me after reading my opinion......
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Perhaps you mis-heard the people who were trying to educate you. They were "FAR-wielding", not fire-wielding.

Per FAR (CFR) 14 Part 61.51 (g)(1): "A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when that person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."

For instance, when on final approach you break out of the clouds and visually acquire the runway you do not suddenly become a VFR flight...
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No, you don't "become a VFR flight". But you *are* using visual reference to the ground, which means that you are no longer operating the aircraft "solely by reference to instruments". Thus, that portion of the flight cannot legally be logged as instrument time, and it's why CFIIs and DPEs knock off at least 0.1 hrs of time (for each landing) from the total flight time when figuring instrument time for training flights and check rides, because you're not wearing the hood and thus not meeting the FAR criteria to log the time as instrument time.
 
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Jim_R said:
No, you don't "become a VFR flight". But you *are* using visual reference to the ground, which means that you are no longer operating the aircraft "solely by reference to instruments". Thus, that portion of the flight cannot legally be logged as instrument time, and it's why CFIIs and DPEs knock off at least 0.1 hrs of time (for each landing) from the total flight time when figuring instrument time for training flights and check rides, because you're not wearing the hood and thus not meeting the FAR criteria to log the time as instrument time.
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That is correct. My instrument students end up spending virtually all their time under the hood. What time is not spent under the hood is usually measured in seconds, and are simply long enough to take off, land, and for me to point out important features of the flight (weather, obstacles, etc.).
 
Thanks all,
This group is a great resource.
 
Back in the olden days, when VORs were new and miraculous, my instructor told me that as far as he was concerned I was thinking iFR from the time I walked in the door....he logged every minute of every IFR instructional flight as instrument time. When I became an instructor I followed this practice as well.

Bob Gardner
 
Since the OP's question has been answered, here's another related one: do you log as instrument time the time that the autopilot is controlling the airplane? (assuming you have one)

This kinda came up on Sunday as I was going out over Grand Traverse Bay after descending to 3000 MSL and it was hazy, though still legal VFR. With the Leelanau Peninsula hidden in the murk, it was effectively instrument conditions from the time the near shore disappeared under the cowl. I was busy readjusting the mixture after long descent, double-checking destination field frequencies, looking for traffic, etc. and had the A/P doing its thing. Once settled I disengaged the A/P and continued to hand-fly on the gauges until I could make out land, but that was less than 5 minutes and I didn't log any actual. Counting the time the A/P was doing the flying it could probably have been rounded up to 0.2.

Even during training there have been times when I've engaged the A/P (with my CFII's blessing) to figure out what the heck the GPS was doing -- once flying with a safety pilot, and didn't think to subtract that time from the simulated column. What if you're in the soup with the A/P engaged? I'm just not sure what is considered loggable when there's an A/P involved.
 
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I log instrument time when vis is less than 1 mile, or when I'm in the clouds.

Even if the A/P is engaged you still have to monitor to make sure it hasn't crapped out on you.
 
I haven't found the FAR that defines when the autopilot is PIC, and there's no column in my logbook for "autopilot time". I guess that means I'm still PIC and responsible for controlling the plane, even if I've got a motor and a feedback loop helping me out.

Log the time in IMC, regardless of whether George is holding the yoke.
 
EdFred said:
I log instrument time when vis is less than 1 mile, or when I'm in the clouds.
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I've logged actual on a Lake Michigan crossing before. If I have to rely on the instruments to control the airplane, it's instrument time as far as I'm concerned. But I haven't taken a checkride since then, so I'm not sure whether the DPE (or the FAA) would accept it.

Even if the A/P is engaged you still have to monitor to make sure it hasn't crapped out on you.
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Well of course this is true.
 
Since the A/P doesn't have a logbook (not even Otto), it can't be PIC, instrument, etc., and thus I log the actual instrument time when the autopilot is running.

Regardless of whether you or the A/P are flying the plane, you're monitoring to make sure it hasn't crapped out, and you still need to be instrument rated to fly it in clouds. Really, the A/P is a tool to reduce my workload - it isn't the pilot.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That's because the autopilot is NEVER the PIC.
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Er, I meant it as a joke. Of course the reason there is no FAR is because it is a ludicrous proposition. Sorry if that was not clear.
 
azure said:
I've logged actual on a Lake Michigan crossing before. If I have to rely on the instruments to control the airplane, it's instrument time as far as I'm concerned. But I haven't taken a checkride since then, so I'm not sure whether the DPE (or the FAA) would accept it.


Well of course this is true.
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Yeah, but you and I are the only ones that do!
 
On those days when you are popping in and out of the clouds, use the following method. You are flying along and go through a cloud for 30 seconds of IMC. Well there is no column for seconds or even minutes in my logbook, so its got to be .1 instrument time, right? Oops, just went through another cloud, up to .2 . So at the end of a 1.5 hr flight and hit 20 clouds I log 2.0 instrument time. :D

Obviously I'm joking. Use your best estimate and be realistic. Most pilots spend no more than 10% to 15% of their flight time in actual IMC. If you log significantly higher than that you are either a liar or you haul checks. :D
 
bobmrg said:
Back in the olden days, when VORs were new and miraculous, my instructor told me that as far as he was concerned I was thinking iFR from the time I walked in the door....he logged every minute of every IFR instructional flight as instrument time. When I became an instructor I followed this practice as well.

Bob Gardner
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My CFII never logged all the time (block to block) as instrument time. His logic: Who taxies to and from the runway under the hood or actual?
 
Jim_R said:
I haven't found the FAR that defines when the autopilot is PIC, and there's no column in my logbook for "autopilot time". I guess that means I'm still PIC and responsible for controlling the plane, even if I've got a motor and a feedback loop helping me out.

Log the time in IMC, regardless of whether George is holding the yoke.
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...and you're manipulating George's controls. Log it -- PIC, actual instrument, whatever you'd log if you were hands-on-stick rather than hands-on-knobs. The FAA won't argue.
 
One day we're flying over the Great Salt Lake being vectored to Ogden when a passenger remarks, "I can't see s**t."

So, that's my rule of thumb for logging instrument time.
 
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