c150 Annual Inspection

[bobkiksass]

Hi, I just had the annual done on my Cessna 150 and am wondering if anyone can give me a gauge of whether you think these are fair quantities of labor for what was accomplished;

18 hours to accomplish an annual inspection (when I did it a year before at a different shop I was charged for 8 hours) (oil/filter wasnt changed because there was only 5 hours on it, and I removed all panels and interior from airframe for inspection)

2 hours to replace and test an elt battery

2 hours to accomplish AD research (wasnt charged at other shop during last annual for it, and have a detailed list with all compliance. shop charging 2 hours basically printed out the same sheet with their name on it )

1.5 hours to accomplish AD 2011-10-09 regarding seat track, roller, housing and locking pin inspection

Im just surprised they could've spent nearly 3 working days doing this annual inspection, I had the plane disassembled in a few hours and the mechanic and I looked at it together and he thought it was pretty much good to go ??? Can any mechanics who inspect C150's tell me how long it normally takes without any help from the owner doing the work I did ?

 

[poadeleted20]

18 hours to accomplish an annual inspection (when I did it a year before at a different shop I was charged for 8 hours)

8 hours to complete an annual inspection on a C-150? No way it was done properly unless the IA was The Flash. 18 hours is a much more realistic number to do everything required.

2 hours to replace and test an elt battery

I all they did was replace and test the battery, the 91.207(d) requirements were not complied with. In any event, where is the ELT in your plane? What's involved in getting to it? How much time was required to obtain the replacement battery?

2 hours to accomplish AD research (wasnt charged at other shop during last annual for it, and have a detailed list with all compliance. shop charging 2 hours basically printed out the same sheet with their name on it )

I can't imagine taking less than 2 hours to do this right, including checking all the past logs on this 40+ year old plane to confirm compliance, and if the last guy didn't charge you for the time, I'd have to wonder whether or not he actually checked it all.

1.5 hours to accomplish AD 2011-10-09 regarding seat track, roller, housing and locking pin inspection

Can't speak to that one.

Im just surprised they could've spent nearly 3 working days doing this annual inspection, I had the plane disassembled in a few hours and the mechanic and I looked at it together and he thought it was pretty much good to go ??? Can any mechanics who inspect C150's tell me how long it normally takes without any help from the owner doing the work I did ?

You must work short days if you think 18 hours is "nearly 3 working days."

All in all, I think your expectations were shaped by someone who did a half-patootied job the last time.

 

[weirdjim]

8 hours to complete an annual inspection on a C-150? No way it was done properly unless the IA was The Flash. 18 hours is a much more realistic number to do everything required.

All in all, I think your expectations were shaped by someone who did a half-patootied job the last time.

You keep saying that and yet apparently you have absolutely no experience inspecting 150s. There are a few of us on this group who actually DO inspections and the only way a 150 would take 8 hours is if I sat on my butt drinking beer the last two hours.

Jim

 

[Skylane81E]

18 is the flat rate time for a 182, and the time billed for the AD, about an hour too long IMO and the ELT battery replacement should be labor neutral if they are doing 91.207d anyway as they should be.

 

[bobkiksass]

Duncan, how many hours for the annual on the 150 would you charge ?
you think getting an AD list should take one hour ?
and the elt battery was 91.207d so that would be part of the annual in your opinion ?

 

[weirdjim]

18 is the flat rate time for a 182, and the time billed for the AD, about an hour too long IMO and the ELT battery replacement should be labor neutral if they are doing 91.207d anyway as they should be.

That may be the flat rate for the 182, but how about a 150 that was completely unbuttoned with up to date paperwork?

Jim

 

[flyingmoose]

At our shop we are use 14 hrs as a standard. That is about the standard I think to do the inspection properly. I include an hour of time for AD research in that price, but some shops add time if its the first time they have done the inspection, because they really need to go through every AD and see if your S/N is included. Installing the ELT battery...meh, like Duncan said it labor neutral. I wouldn't have charged you for it. 2 hours for the first AD research is not bad. It can be a real PITA to go through and AC and all appliances the first time you have seen it. If you had the aircraft opened up and you wanted a discount for assisting, I would have guessed you discussed that before hand. I take time off for things like that. 1.5 for seat track??? That is a bit steep. Anyway did you discuss these things with them?

 

[bobkiksass]

I had all AD history in compliance in a list. Is it required that they produce their own list?

Also, not sure if this would be standard part of an annual,

.5 hr - gyro instrument filter requires service, removed filter, inspected and reinstalled
.5 hr - vacuum regulator filter replaced

 

[flyingmoose]

I had all AD history in compliance in a list. Is it required that they produce their own list?

Well don't take this the wrong way, but any IA worth their weight will look at your list and ....... do their own. Sometimes I will look there will be an AD on the list that has been signed... "N/A by S/N," or "Does not apply" and I do my own looking and find that it has been signed off for all these years as "does not apply" and it was wrong. So yes they are supposed to do their own sign off saying the AD's are complied with.

Also, not sure if this would be standard part of an annual,

.5 hr - gyro instrument filter requires service, removed filter, inspected and reinstalled
.5 hr - vacuum regulator filter replaced

Any shop can do as they please, but that is silly.

 

[Silvaire]

AD research on a first time inspection of a 40 year old airplane is going to take some time, just no getting around it. If there is a really good previously compiled AD compliance list that can point you directly to the original sign-offs in the logs it's a big help but you still have to personally verify those sign-offs one way or another because often times they were just done wrong and the thing has been getting rubber stamped year after year. I've seen airplanes that have had a recurring AD inspection done year after year that was not applicable due to serial number so it goes both ways.

In this particular case 18 hours is about 3 or 4 high for a 150 and then you appear to be getting double slammed on a few things. On the other hand, your attitude and expectation that it's no big deal and should have been done in 8 is equally off the mark.

The best advice I can give to an owner such as yourself is to garner a relationship with a mechanic and not shop around for maintenance. You as the owner can also do a lot by getting your paperwork together. Go over the airplane and get the part and serial numbers of everything you can. Go through your logbooks and make up a sheet that documents every bit of information you can verify about installation dates and tach hours for all of these components.

After all, you are the owner and you live with the airplane all year long. You don't have to be mechanically inclined to do this other than to remove the cowl or a bulkhead panel and read the entries in the logs. Doing this will not only help the inspecting mechanic but also educate yourself as to what's really going on with the machine you fly in.

 

[tinerj]

I took my C150 to a good shop with an experienced A/P IA. I happened to be at the FBO and watched them work. They spent all day and then until about 10:00 the next day.

They charged, even for a few years ago, a very low fixed rate of $540, and only found a few minor squawks that needed work. I don't know the actual hours because it was flat rate. But the 14 hours previously mentioned seems about right.

Added: The A/P IA had a helper who did the oil change and some of the other work.

 

[Tom-D]

8 hours to complete an annual inspection on a C-150? No way it was done properly unless the IA was The Flash. 18 hours is a much more realistic number to do everything required.

How would you know? how many annuals have you done on a C-150? The 150 was designed around a flight school maintenance 1 8 hour day for annual/100 hours.

see the 100 service manual

any one requiring over 12 hours is padding the bill.

I all they did was replace and test the battery, the 91.207(d) requirements were not complied with. In any event, where is the ELT in your plane? What's involved in getting to it? How much time was required to obtain the replacement battery?

Remember the 91 ELT test requirements are not a portion of the annual. He doesn't tell what ELT he has so how can any one presume to know how long it should take.

I can't imagine taking less than 2 hours to do this right, including checking all the past logs on this 40+ year old plane to confirm compliance, and if the last guy didn't charge you for the time, I'd have to wonder whether or not he actually checked it all.

How do we know he doesn't have AD log or ? it takes me about 30 seconds to get a list from AFTD.com. and with any log books it should take about that long to verify they have been completed. the list ain't that long.

Can't speak to that one.

You must work short days if you think 18 hours is "nearly 3 working days."

All in all, I think your expectations were shaped by someone who did a half-patootied job the last time.

a pilots opinion of maintenance.

 

[Tom-D]

I had all AD history in compliance in a list. Is it required that they produce their own list?

NO.

Also, not sure if this would be standard part of an annual,

.5 hr - gyro instrument filter requires service, removed filter, inspected and reinstalled
.5 hr - vacuum regulator filter replaced

they should have replaced it. and yes it take me that long because I'm old and don't fit under there as easy as I once did.

 

[Tom-D]

A&P-IAs declare airworthiness when they sign off an annual inspection. Thus they are responsibility of insuring FAR part 39 is complied with. how they do that is their business.

But their certificate is at state when they are caught missing one.

 

[poadeleted20]

You keep saying that and yet apparently you have absolutely no experience inspecting 150s. There are a few of us on this group who actually DO inspections and the only way a 150 would take 8 hours is if I sat on my butt drinking beer the last two hours.

Jim

Not if you do it properly. Just can't be done.

 

[poadeleted20]

and the elt battery was 91.207d so that would be part of the annual in your opinion ?

It is not part of the annual, but it has to be done every year anyway, so IA's normally do it at the same time. I suppose you could tell them not to do it, but then you'd be stuck with the restrictions of 91.207(e) and (f) until it was done.

 

[alfadog]

FWIW, mechanic I was using had a quote sheet of hours for an annual. The lowest on simple aircraft like a C-150 was 14 hours. I imagine this would include basic logbook and AD work if previous years' work was up to snuff.

 

[Norman]

FWIW, mechanic I was using had a quote sheet of hours for an annual. The lowest on simple aircraft like a C-150 was 14 hours. I imagine this would include basic logbook and AD work if previous years' work was up to snuff.

And that 14 hours would include THEM opening and closing.

 

[Skylane81E]

Not if you do it properly. Just can't be done.

Untrue

 

[Skylane81E]

It is not part of the annual, but it has to be done every year anyway, so IA's normally do it at the same time. I suppose you could tell them not to do it, but then you'd be stuck with the restrictions of 91.207(e) and (f) until it was done.

If they are using the Cessna checklist it is part of the annual

 

[Skylane81E]

And that 14 hours would include THEM opening and closing.

Doing all the work, and a detailed new-to-the-shop plane AD search.

 

[Tom-D]

Not if you do it properly. Just can't be done.

BS...

 

[weirdjim]

BS...

Just let it go, Tom. The first thing you learn as a teacher is not to argue with the ignorant. It is like mud wrestling with a pig. You get all dirty AND the pig likes it.

Jim

 

[Foxhole]

What did the annual cost?

 

[tinerj]

The $540 flat-rate C150 annual was done at a time when A/P charged $40 an hour, so 14 * 40 = $560. Although the rate may change, the hours wouldn't.

So 14 hours still sounds right to me.

Also: All 100 hour and annual inspections require the airframe and engine be thoroughly cleaned and washed.

I've found a lot of A/P don't do that, which lowers the hours needed, but it is required.

 

[Skylane81E]

A poorly structured bill could be the culprit as well. 18hours of work would be easy to find on a 150.

However the other things being line items makes me think that this is not likely the case

 

[bobkiksass]

I was charged 2180 in labor at 89$/hr including all items discussed below;

This is what I wrote to the mechanic to try to resolve this ;

"From a few different mechanics I found out that inspecting the C150 should take approximately 12-14 hours, some have given estimates as low as 8 hours, and this would include labor neutral time allotted for several items I have additionally been charged on this bill.

Included in this 12-14 hours time would be allotted time for;
1. disassembling the exterior and interior of the aircraft (which was not required since I did it, would hope for 1-2 hour credit)
2. changing the oil/filter, inspecting the plugs (not required, since oil only had 4 hours since changed, plugs were inspected during borescoping, would hope for 1 hour credit)
3. the inspection and replacement of the ELT battery for 91.207. Should be part of annual per Cessna checklist. (charged 2 additional hours squawk 11- should be labor neutral and included in annual)
4. inspecting the vacuum regulator filter (charged 0.5 additional hours squawk 7- should be labor neutral and included in annual)
5. replacing the gyro instrument filter (charged 0.5 additional hours squawk 8- should be labor neutral and included in annual)
6. the inspection of the seat tracks (charged 1.5 additional hours squawk 14- should be labor neutral and included in annual)
7. at least one hour of AD research should be labor neutral included (charged 2 additional hours squawk 13 - I understand this a new aircraft to you guys so this may take an up to an additional 1 hour in addition to what is normally approx. 1 hr of research included in an annual (totaling 2 hours), my AD history was very well documented and previous mechanics did not charge for this research)"

From my estimate, I would think that the labor for the annual should be something between 9-12 hours and include all of the additionally charged items listed above, plus the 1 hour for borescoping, and 1 additional hour for AD research since the plane is new to you."
​

Does this seem fair to the other mechanics on this board ??

 

[Skylane81E]

The seat track AD is not labor neutral, but it does not take nearly as much time as they billed you for either.

 

[Witmo]

Typically, spark plugs are removed to be inspected, cleaned, tested, and reinstalled. You can't fully inspect and test spark plugs by looking at the electrodes with a borescope inside the cylinder.

I'd say two workdays, 16 manhours is adequate to inspect a 150, and do the usual preventative maintenance (lube fittings, oil change, plug maintenance, wheel bearing maintenance, etc). If an owner removes and replaces the interior, cowlings, and inspection panels, you would save about 2 hours. If AD record was poor and older ADs needed to be verified, you might have to add some hours depending on the AD. Just my opinion as an A&P, 150 owner.

Added: Okay, if strictly an inspection only, one day--no preventative maintenance, just open everything up and looky, check ADs, sign log.

 

[alfadog]

snip...

From my estimate, I would think that the labor for the annual should be something between 9-12 hours and include all of the additionally charged items listed above, plus the 1 hour for borescoping, and 1 additional hour for AD research since the plane is new to you."
[/INDENT]Does this seem fair to the other mechanics on this board ??

Sounds like you are trying to low-ball him now and he might not appreciate that. I do not think 16 hours labor would be unreasonable based on my (limited) experience and what I see here.

 

[Mike5250]

Interesting to read and learn so we know what to expect during the annual on the 150. Why didn't you take it back to the shop that charges 8 hours?

Did they quote 18hrs before they started working? I'm sure they have you review a work order and approve labor up to x amount before starting.

The partner I share the 150 owership costs with mentioned past annuals were 1200-1800 and there was one expensive one a few years ago when they stripped the plane down to repaint.

 

[bobkiksass]

Well the reason I didn't go back to the guy who charged 8 hours is because this shop I went to is at my base airport and the mechanic had helped me with some other things. I didn't sign any work order with an estimate, the mechanic had helped me with a few other things which always seemed pretty reasonable and I guess I just figured the labor amounts would be comparable to the other shop. I know stupid of me for not getting an estimate.

 

[hindsight2020]

WOW. You got had. My warrior II annual with squawks above and beyond the 10hr flat rate (tire replacement, yoke U bolt AD, aileron sprocket repair, strut leak repair) last year was $2000. My C-150 in 2009 was $1200 with a complete mag wiring harness replacement and labor. Granted, labor was $75/hr. Most of the crap listed should have been labor neutral. And mind you, both of those annuals were first year annuals without having done pre-buys on either aircraft. Pick a different AP next time.

If you're gonna pay 2AMUs for a run of the mill annual, might as well get yourself a bigger airplane, because that's about what it would run you to do one on any 4 banger retract, which are a hell of a lot more airplane. I'd sell the 150 if that's what the going rate was for cursory mx on your area....

 

[Tom-D]

here we go again,, why do you believe the costs of repairs and servicing during your 13th month maintenance period is what your annual costs?

 

[weirdjim]

here we go again,, why do you believe the costs of repairs and servicing during your 13th month maintenance period is what your annual costs?

Tom, they are baiting the bears. Let it flow. We both know that the only "maintenance" that has to be done on the inspection is (Far Appendix D) ... NOTHING.

We are required to "clean" the airframe and engine. Nothing says wash.

We are required to determine the engine condition. Nothing says clean and test the plugs, do a borescope, or do a compression check in any particular way.

We are required to INSPECT a hell of a lot. We are not required to REPAIR anything. We can INFORM the owner that something is getting close to unairworthy; we can REFUSE to sign off the aircraft as airworthy, or we can SIGN OFF the aircraft as airworthy.

Anything else is OUTSIDE of the inspection requirements. Tell that to this bunch of folks who think that an "annual" is license for the shop doing the annual to fix each and every little thing that they fancy and bill the owner for it.

I say again, and I mean it, any annual INSPECTION on a Cessna 150 that takes longer than 6 hours means that the owner didn't do an adequate job of opening inspection panels, doing preventive maintenance, and doing the grunt labor to make the aircraft pristine airworthy (i.e. getting greasy).

Jim

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, they are baiting the bears. Let it flow. We both know that the only "maintenance" that has to be done on the inspection is (Far Appendix D) ... NOTHING.

We are required to "clean" the airframe and engine. Nothing says wash.

If you bring mea dirty aircraft, I'll charge you 150 to wash it. then I'll inspect it.

We are required to determine the engine condition. Nothing says clean and test the plugs, do a borescope, or do a compression check in any particular way.

We are required to INSPECT a hell of a lot. We are not required to REPAIR anything. We can INFORM the owner that something is getting close to unairworthy; we can REFUSE to sign off the aircraft as airworthy, or we can SIGN OFF the aircraft as airworthy.

We are not even required to tell the owner that things are getting worn or near being unairworthy.

Anything else is OUTSIDE of the inspection requirements. Tell that to this bunch of folks who think that an "annual" is license for the shop doing the annual to fix each and every little thing that they fancy and bill the owner for it.

In the common thinking of this web page I spent 11 years and nearly $100,000 doing the annual on the Fairchild.

I say again, and I mean it, any annual INSPECTION on a Cessna 150 that takes longer than 6 hours means that the owner didn't do an adequate job of opening inspection panels, doing preventive maintenance, and doing the grunt labor to make the aircraft pristine airworthy (i.e. getting greasy).

Jim

I normally take 1 whole day, I can open all the panels in less than 30 minutes After all there is what? 8 ?
servicing the aircraft is a part of my annual service, you have it open why not lube and grease it while you in there.

I do a compression check and if I find problems I'll trouble shoot it so I can tell the owner the problem and what it will take to fix it. Plugs get cleaned while they are out. (if they need it) maybe an hour to get that done.

The screen is going to get looked at, so I may as well do the oil change. (You best bring the oil)

the reoccurring ADs will get complied with, the seat track and rollers are the big one and requires about 30 minutes.

I stay informed as to new ADs so that isn't a biggie, I check the AD compliance prior to getting the aircraft.

I see most of my customers more than once per year, so I know their aircraft and what to expect during the inspection, most of my customers do their own maintenance, under my supervision so there is no surprises during the inspection.

Like I said more than one day is really padding the bill.

 

[VanDy]

We are required to determine the engine condition. Nothing says clean and test the plugs, do a borescope, or do a compression check in any particular way.

Far 43 Appendix D (d)(3)

Internal engine—for cylinder compression and for metal particles or foreign matter on screens and sump drain plugs. If there is weak cylinder compression, for improper internal condition and improper internal tolerances.

 

[Tom-D]

Far 43 Appendix D (d)(3)
Quote:
Internal engine—for cylinder compression and for metal particles or foreign matter on screens and sump drain plugs. If there is weak cylinder compression, for improper internal condition and improper internal tolerances.

That doesn't tell you "HOW" the inspection is to be completed.

How long does it require you to do a static compression test on a 4 cylinder engine?

and where does it say what constitutes a low cylinder?

 

[VanDy]

That doesn't tell you "HOW" the inspection is to be completed.

How long does it require you to do a static compression test on a 4 cylinder engine?

and where does it say what constitutes a low cylinder?

Those questions have nothing to do with the statement I was trying to correct, which I have quoted below for easy reference. I am always open to being shown the error in my ways if you believe my reference was incorrect or doesn't apply to the statement made below.

We are required to determine the engine condition. Nothing says clean and test the plugs, do a borescope, or do a compression check in any particular way.

But to answer your question, start at FAR 43.13 to find:

Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator

This leaves a few different options available for you.

To pick 1 option that is easy to look up, see Advisory Circular AC43.13-1B 8-14 which explains how to perform a differential compression check and what the limits are.

 

[Silvaire]

To pick 1 option that is easy to look up, see Advisory Circular AC43.13-1B 8-14 which explains how to perform a differential compression check and what the limits are.

You mean as in:

A loss in excess of 25 percent of the input air pressure is cause to suspect the cylinder of being defective; however....