C-27J Strait From Production to Boneyard

N

No Joy

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Jul 8, 2013
Messages
1,387
Display Name
Display name:
No Joy
New Air Force cargo planes fly straight into mothballs
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/07/new-air-force-cargo-planes-fly-straight-into-mothballs/


The Pentagon is sending $50 million cargo planes straight from the assembly line to mothballs because it has no use for them, yet it still hasn’t stopped ordering the aircraft, according to a report.

A dozen nearly new Italian-built C-27J Spartans have been shipped to an Air Force facility in Arizona dubbed “the boneyard,” and five more currently under construction are likely headed for the same fate, according to an investigation by the Dayton Daily News. The Air Force has spent $567 million on 21 of the planes since 2007
Click to expand...
USAF officials told IHS Jane's that they are looking for other Department of Defense or civilian agencies to take over management of the small twin-propeller cargo aircraft, which was designed to provide direct support to the US Army by supplementing CH-47 Chinook helicopters in ferrying small cargo to troops in the field.

So far, US Special Operations Command, the US Coast Guard, and US Forest Service have each submitted letters of interest asking to take over management of the C-27J, according to defence officials.
Click to expand...
http://www.janes.com/article/28059/pentagon-shops-for-new-c-27j-managers

US taxpayers subsidizing Italy.
 
And still no replacement for the Sherpa. At the cost of this thing the Army might as well buy C-130s or MV-22s.
 
Last edited:
A number of people should go to jail for this, including command staff at AF, ANG and some congressmen.
 
This part kills me:
But canceling orders for planes already being built is not feasible -- even if they are not needed, according to Air Force spokesman Darryl Mayer.
"They are too near completion for a termination to be cost effective and other government agencies have requested the aircraft," Mayer told the paper.
Click to expand...
OK, so SELL THE BLOODY THINGS. Unload them on a foreign country, even if you take a partial loss on the sale. I mean, according to Wikipedia that plane is also used by Australia, Italy, Greece, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Mexico, Morocco and Romania.

The cranial vacuum and utter irresponsibility in our government at all levels is truly mind-boggling.
 
DaleB said:
This part kills me:OK, so SELL THE BLOODY THINGS. Unload them on a foreign country, even if you take a partial loss on the sale. I mean, according to Wikipedia that plane is also used by Australia, Italy, Greece, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Mexico, Morocco and Romania.

The cranial vacuum and utter irresponsibility in our government at all levels is truly mind-boggling.
Click to expand...

Or at least attempt to negotiate to get them in kit form and inventory them as spare parts
 
DavidWhite said:
These are the same people now running healthcare.

How is THAT for scary?
Click to expand...


Lotta veterans love their VA Healthcare that is ran by the government. So, I would guess it is not really that scary.
 
Here is the key sentence from the news story:

"Ohio's senators, Democrat Sherrod Brown and Republican Rob Portman, were both defenders of the C-27J when 800 jobs and a mission at Mansfield Air National Guard Base depended on it."

This stuff happens all the time. When I was in the aerospace business, one of the hot topics was the tiltrotor, now V-22. The Pentagon kept zeroing out its development budget and the congressman from Grumman (Long Island) kept putting it back in. It was never clear whether the Pentagon zeroed it because they knew it would be put back or because they didn't want it.

Same-o, when the Oshkosh Corporation didn't get enough truck orders in the DoD budget proposal, they would run to the Wisconsin delegation which would dutifully plus up the budget with direction to DoD to order additional trucks.

This goes on all the time. Every wasteful procurement, every unneeded military base, is a jobs program for some congresscritter. The $223M bridge to nowhere was actually fairly cheap compared to some of what goes on.
 
I thought they put the things in storage in the desert and brought them out again when they were needed?
 
airdale said:
Here is the key sentence from the news story:

"Ohio's senators, Democrat Sherrod Brown and Republican Rob Portman, were both defenders of the C-27J when 800 jobs and a mission at Mansfield Air National Guard Base depended on it."

This stuff happens all the time. When I was in the aerospace business, one of the hot topics was the tiltrotor, now V-22. The Pentagon kept zeroing out its development budget and the congressman from Grumman (Long Island) kept putting it back in. It was never clear whether the Pentagon zeroed it because they knew it would be put back or because they didn't want it.

Same-o, when the Oshkosh Corporation didn't get enough truck orders in the DoD budget proposal, they would run to the Wisconsin delegation which would dutifully plus up the budget with direction to DoD to order additional trucks.

This goes on all the time. Every wasteful procurement, every unneeded military base, is a jobs program for some congresscritter. The $223M bridge to nowhere was actually fairly cheap compared to some of what goes on.
Click to expand...

The old Military/Industrial/Political system at work. It is the model for how all Washington bureaucracies work.
 
steingar said:
I thought they put the things in storage in the desert and brought them out again when they were needed?
Click to expand...

They decided that they dont need them. They will sit at the boneyard until 20 years are up and then they get crushed :(.

There is a chance that the forest service takes them and leases them out to air-tanker operators. The coast guard may also take a couple to replace their C130s.

They have to remain within US goverment use. Alenia sold them at a steep discount based on a order for more than 120 planes. The order got cut to the current level which means Alenia is taking a bath on this and is not willing to support the planes if they show up for re-sale.

The 'high cost' to operate them is the result of how the deployment was structured. They were supposed to be farmed out to 20 different ANG bases, each with its own repair facility etc. This of course was the result of political meddling as well. The idea that the cost difference between operating a twin turboprop and a 4 engine turboprop is as small as the AF wants it to be is difficult to believe.
 
weilke said:
They decided that they dont need them. They will sit at the boneyard until 20 years are up and then they get crushed :(.

There is a chance that the forest service takes them and leases them out to air-tanker operators. The coast guard may also take a couple to replace their C130s.

They have to remain within US goverment use. Alenia sold them at a steep discount based on a order for more than 120 planes. The order got cut to the current level which means Alenia is taking a bath on this and is not willing to support the planes if they show up for re-sale.

The 'high cost' to operate them is the result of how the deployment was structured. They were supposed to be farmed out to 20 different ANG bases, each with its own repair facility etc. This of course was the result of political meddling as well. The idea that the cost difference between operating a twin turboprop and a 4 engine turboprop is as small as the AF wants it to be is difficult to believe.
Click to expand...

When you're flying 1,000 or so C-130's, you have a lot of economies of scale (particularly in spare parts inventory and depot level maintenance) vs operating 30 of something else.

Obviously, fuel costs would be much lower on the twin, but that's probably where it more or less stops.

By the way, over the years, Lockheed looked at a twin engine C-130 "lite" several times and didn't find enough of an improvement in cost/benefit ratio to justify production.
 
kyleb said:
When you're flying 1,000 or so C-130's, you have a lot of economies of scale (particularly in spare parts inventory and depot level maintenance) vs operating 30 of something else.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't it have been a grand idea to think about that first before they pushed this procurement through the process ?
 
weilke said:
Wouldn't it have been a grand idea to think about that first before they pushed this procurement through the process ?
Click to expand...

I bet that was why congressmen with parochial interests pushed it instead of the AF.
 
The USAF never had a mission for them, never asked for them, never budgeted for them and were issued the things by Congress.

The only thing that interested the USAF was that they didn't go to the Army. :rolleyes:

Cheers
 
bartmc said:
The VA is in complete and utter disarray.

Pick one.

https://www.google.com/search?q=VA+...F-8&hl=en&client=safari#hl=en&q=VA+wait+times
Click to expand...
The VA is an example of what happens when health-care is controlled by the government. There is a huge disparity in treatment. A very select few receive high end care. The vast majority receive dismal care. Many have been treated so badly by the VA, that they choose to go without care.

Health care is rationed, especially in the military. Generally the lower the rank, the worse the care is. Generally the older an injury is, the worse the care is. Also when and how you received your injury or illness, often is a big factor in VA care. If you're freshly injured in front-line combat in what is perceived as heroic circumstances, understandably you're likely to get better care. Otherwise you're likely to get dismal care.
 
Please take the political stuff and health care arguments to Spin Zone

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 
kyleb said:
When you're flying 1,000 or so C-130's, you have a lot of economies of scale (particularly in spare parts inventory and depot level maintenance) vs operating 30 of something else.

Obviously, fuel costs would be much lower on the twin, but that's probably where it more or less stops.

By the way, over the years, Lockheed looked at a twin engine C-130 "lite" several times and didn't find enough of an improvement in cost/benefit ratio to justify production.
Click to expand...

The C27J uses the same avionics and engines and props as the C-130J so parts commonality isn't the issue, so your argument doesn't hold. The real story here is even more bizarre.

The C27J program was a joint Lockheed-Martin/Alenia program to replace the C-23 Sherpa. But Lockheed-Martin was suffering such huge problems in the F-35 program they needed cash so they broke away from Alenia and offered the 130 in place of the 27J in the medium transport competition, counting on their political puppets and long standing 130 community within the military. The Coast Guard would spend several hundred million more that they don't have trying to support the 27J , when the HC-144 seems to be working just fine. As with any military acquisition program, politics plays a huge role, and Lockheed's abrogation of their deal with Alenia to proffer the 27J is the rankest form of deceit. Meanwhile. the taxpayers buy 27Js which go straight to the boneyard, and buy 130Js for more money to replace the ones we buy to scrap. Ain't politics wunnerful??? :mad2:
 
Last edited:
X3 Skier said:
The USAF never had a mission for them, never asked for them, never budgeted for them and were issued the things by Congress.

The only thing that interested the USAF was that they didn't go to the Army. :rolleyes:

Cheers
Click to expand...

Didn't the same thing happen with the C-17 being forced on the AF as a replacement to the C-5?
 
tmyers said:
Didn't the same thing happen with the C-17 being forced on the AF as a replacement to the C-5?
Click to expand...

Nope, the main use for the C-17 was to replace the C-141 which was rapidly falling apart and expensive to maintain and the USAF REALLY needed it. The big problem was a totally stupid contract Douglas signed that led to years of acrimony and a threat of cancellation. The DoD made Douglas an offer they couldn't refuse, both sides replaced the Top Mangers and Chief Engineers and within three years, the program exceeded all goals, was under budget and very successful for both the USAF and the contractor. The last producton airplane was just delivered.

Cheers
 
No Joy said:
The VA is an example of what happens when health-care is controlled by the government. There is a huge disparity in treatment. A very select few receive high end care. The vast majority receive dismal care. Many have been treated so badly by the VA, that they choose to go without care.

Health care is rationed, especially in the military. Generally the lower the rank, the worse the care is. Generally the older an injury is, the worse the care is. Also when and how you received your injury or illness, often is a big factor in VA care. If you're freshly injured in front-line combat in what is perceived as heroic circumstances, understandably you're likely to get better care. Otherwise you're likely to get dismal care.
Click to expand...

Reference or what is your opinion based on?
 
I hope they parked them next to the C123s from the Nam era.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top