Buzzing, and physical harm to the public

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

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Dave Taylor
Let'sgoflying! said:
What is the record on buzz jobs; have a lot of people on the ground been killed doing it? Just seems like the flap that follows them is out of proportion. Zoom, its over.

We all know its against the law and generally condemned, but I was wondering if it was an emotional reaction to the sight, the noise or if there was an actual physical hazard to the public's life and limb.
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All the NTSB accident reports I've read that involved buzzing have only resulted in the people onboard the plane being killed.

Personally I don't have a problem with banning low level flight near gatherings of people...do we really want to wait until a dozen people are killed on the ground before restricting this type of flying?
 
Jack Spectre said:
All the NTSB accident reports I've read that involved buzzing have only resulted in the people onboard the plane being killed.

Personally I don't have a problem with banning low level flight near gatherings of people...do we really want to wait until a dozen people are killed on the ground before restricting this type of flying?
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As long as you know where a "gathering" is. Often you can fly along a beach and not see a soul for miles. Is it "reckless" if you happen to fly past a bunch of campers on a desolate stretch of shore?
 
In a typical year, there are about 10 injuries, and 2 or 3 fatalities, from people on the ground involved in GA accidents due to any cause.

In '05 and '07, it doesn't look like any of the fatalities were "buzzing" accidents. In '06 there was a ground fatality in an accident categorized as "maneuvering", which is the category applied to buzzing, but could also be something else.
-harry
 
Jack Spectre said:
All the NTSB accident reports I've read that involved buzzing have only resulted in the people onboard the plane being killed.

Personally I don't have a problem with banning low level flight near gatherings of people...do we really want to wait until a dozen people are killed on the ground before restricting this type of flying?
Click to expand...



can_of_worms.jpg
 
dmccormack said:
As long as you know where a "gathering" is. Often you can fly along a beach and not see a soul for miles. Is it "reckless" if you happen to fly past a bunch of campers on a desolate stretch of shore?
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Not if you see them in time and clear them by 500 feet.

I think the deal is the danger of loss of control when too close to other folks. Birdstrikes, wires, engine failures, distractions of any sort--these can cause the flight path to alter enough to kill someone.

I get choked when I'm at some secluded, quiet, peaceful location and some dude roars in on his quad or cranks the volume on his thumper car. I like airplane noise, but there are a lot of folks out there that don't and we need to avoid offending people needlessly if we want to be left alone to enjoy our freedom to fly.

Dan
 
What a tool.

It may not have been ten feet, but it was foolishly low.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Not if you see them in time and clear them by 500 feet.

I think the deal is the danger of loss of control when too close to other folks. Birdstrikes, wires, engine failures, distractions of any sort--these can cause the flight path to alter enough to kill someone.

I get choked when I'm at some secluded, quiet, peaceful location and some dude roars in on his quad or cranks the volume on his thumper car. I like airplane noise, but there are a lot of folks out there that don't and we need to avoid offending people needlessly if we want to be left alone to enjoy our freedom to fly.

Dan
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I certainly agree... but we should be wary of new rules meant to "protect the public" when the existing rules are perceived as ineffective.
 
In the Bahamas, it was traditional to buzz the resort in which one stayed--Green Turtle Yacht Club is where were-- when one left. It went on for years. As far as I know, no one was ever hurt. Last time I was there, they were much more concerned about hurricanes than buzzing airplanes.

It's like anything, the many do just fine using reasonable judgment; then, a few can't do that and we all get a new rule.

Best,

Dave
 
Government regulations are never put in place until at least one person has been killed in order for them to determine there is a need. I would be willing to bet that just about all aviation regulations are based on someones poor judgment that resulted in death or serious injury.

I can not think of one good reason for "buzzing" other than some egotist showing off what a great and brilliant pilot they are. Flying low down a river or road is just plain idiocy, there are always wires going across those things.

John
 
SCCutler said:
What a tool.

It may not have been ten feet, but it was foolishly low.
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Plus he was arguably within the KSMO Class D and definitely under the Los Angeles Class B as well as being near various airways. If they are going to revoke anyone's certificate it needs to be this guy.

It's one thing to do it at an airshow when the audience knows it's going to happen but those people didn't look like they were in the mood for an airshow and probably never will be.
 

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Well, according to the FAA:
1. That the Respondent's air-
craft had operated in the Los
Angeles International Airport
(LAX) Class B airspace with-
out an ATC clearance;
2. That while in the Class B air-
space, the aircraft was flown
in excess of 250 knots below
10,000 feet;
3. That the Respondent's air-
craft was observed making a
number of passes in the vicin-
ity of the crowed Santa
Monica Pier and beach;
4. That two of the passes were
below 500 feet above the
beach;
5. That during the two passes
below 500 feet, the beach area
was congested with people;
6. That during the course of the
low-altitude passes, had an
emergency landing been nec-
essary, this could not have
been safely effected;
7. That during one of the low-
level passes, the aircraft was
pulled upward in a steep acro-
batic climb with smoke on;
8. That the aerobatic maneuver
was performed at below 1,500
above the surface and within
the Santa Monica Class D air-
space and within 4 nautical
miles of the centerline of a
Federal airway;
9. That upon departing Santa
Monica and returning to Van
Nuys, the Respondent again
entered the LAX Class B air-
space at indicated airspeeds
in excess of 250 knots;
10. That the aircraft was oper-
ated below the underlying air-
space of LAX Class B airspace in
excess of 200 knots; and
11. That the operations of the
Respondent's aircraft were care-
less or reckless so as to endanger
the life or property of another.
​
We can lament the whiny little people on the ground who piddle their pants at the everyday sight of a jet, possibly one with Cold War Eastern Bloc-looking markings, buzzing the Santa Monica pier at a significant portion of the speed of sound, but this guy also broke a lot of our bread and butter regs, including busting Class Bravo and breaking speed limits.
-harry
 
John Baker said:
I can not think of one good reason for "buzzing" other than some egotist showing off what a great and brilliant pilot they are. Flying low down a river or road is just plain idiocy, there are always wires going across those things. John
Click to expand...

Well John, it's been going on since pilots have flown airplanes. The plane doesn't know how high it is, the pilot does. I will be the first to side with you regarding the fella Spike is speaking of, but many of us have made low passes safely in low density areas for a long time and done no harm. In the Bahamas resort of which I spoke, there were no power lines, only sail boat masts. And what some might refer to as buzzing was actually a low pass at a safe airspeed that probably didn't come within a 100 feet of anything. Water on all sides.

For someone to do this in an urban area is just nuts.

I believe there were several of us at Gaston's last year that made go-arounds when pretty low on the approach :rolleyes:. Rural area, grass runway and mostly our group occupying the facility, but heavens knows, none of us would ever buzz the place!!

Best,

Dave
 
Dave, bear in mind that I am a student pilot, therefore I know little or nothing about aviation. Any contributions I may make on a POA forum are not to be taken seriously by anyone. I like to see if my thinking is right, is all I am doing. :)

John
 
John Baker said:
Dave, bear in mind that I am a student pilot, therefore I know little or nothing about aviation. Any contributions I may make on a POA forum are not to be taken seriously by anyone. I like to see if my thinking is right, is all I am doing. :)
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But you are right on about the guy at the Santa Monica Pier. I'm surprised he could get the canopy closed on his airplane due to the size of his head...
 
John Baker said:
Dave, bear in mind that I am a student pilot, therefore I know little or nothing about aviation. Any contributions I may make on a POA forum are not to be taken seriously by anyone. I like to see if my thinking is right, is all I am doing. :)

John
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Sorry John if I came across wrong.

Folks doing things wrong hurt all of us. Stay safe and within your limits and you will live long and prosper.

I guess I just feel that the reaction to someone using poor judgment is to impose a new rule on all of us, even through the rest of us have not used poor judgment.

In the Army, we flew helicopters so low we came in with tree branches in our skids; not to scare folks, but to avoid enemy ground to air missiles. Now, if I make a low pass to check out a grass strip before landing and someone complains, I can be defending myself to FSDO.

Best,

Dave
 
What seems to be the problem with buzz jobs is that they sometimes start out with the intention of being a "zoom, buzz, gone" and end up being steep turns near the ground while the pilot's attention is diverted between flying and waving at his family who is about to watch him die. Hey, I fly acro low to the ground so I'm not interested in being a buzz kill (pun intended). I would just offer the thought that maybe you've done steep turns before but have you ever done one when if your altitude varied by more than 20 feet, you died. Sometimes when pilots get focused on waving to the kids in the driveway they end up doing things that they aren't super proficient at and they do them low to the ground where there's no margin for the mistakes you might justifiably make. Heck, when Sean Tucker is trying something he hasn't done much of, he takes it up higher for a while. Same concept.

The FAA has busted very experienced aerobatic pilots holding low altitude waivers for just making an impromptu high speed low pass - and that's total bovine scat. But they take a dim view of the safety record of low level maneuvering accidents and understand that under most cases, it's a pilot in the danger zone and therefore clobber it when it's noticed.
 
I'd wager there are more personal safety rules in the railroad industry than just about any other around. As they say the rules are "written in blood". Nowadays, a significant factor in the making of new railroad safety rules is to give the railroad a legally defendable position in court when some bonehead gets hurt, then wants the railroad to give him millions for some sort of irresponsible (read: stupid) act he committed. "He knew the rules, he chose to ignore them and got hurt. Oh, by the way he's fired too."
 
Dave Siciliano said:
In the Bahamas, it was traditional to buzz the resort in which one stayed--Green Turtle Yacht Club is where were-- when one left. It went on for years. As far as I know, no one was ever hurt. Last time I was there, they were much more concerned about hurricanes than buzzing airplanes.

It's like anything, the many do just fine using reasonable judgment; then, a few can't do that and we all get a new rule.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...
But Dave, here in the Bahamas, are we subject to FAA rules? :rofl:

And do you want me to make a "low pass" when I leave Treasure Cay or on your behalf at Green Turtle Yacht Club??

I will admit that we did a "low" pass over Diz's place when we left and wagged our wings. But I'll hasten to note that the "low" pass was above 500'AGL!
 
gprellwitz said:
But Dave, here in the Bahamas, are we subject to FAA rules? :rofl:

And do you want me to make a "low pass" when I leave Treasure Cay or on your behalf at Green Turtle Yacht Club??

I will admit that we did a "low" pass over Diz's place when we left and wagged our wings. But I'll hasten to note that the "low" pass was above 500'AGL!
Click to expand...

Please don't attribute any wayward actions to my instigation :D. I didn't fly low over Green Turtle last visit. I used to visit with the owners and we almost had the place to ourselves; it's quite a bit bigger now and I would certainly inquire before doing anything out of the ordinary. 500 feet sounds good to me!! Just use tail number 1369Whiskey!


Best,

Dave
 
As in everything else in Real Life -- it depends.

A military jet flying low passes over Santa Monica pier?

Me putting along in my Chief at 65 MPH over gas line right of ways?
 
I gotta admit that I do a "practice approach" down the bottom field of MY FARM upon returning home from almost every cross country (about 1 per week). This is the field that will become a landing strip (hopefully construction will start next spring). I execute a standard approach and then "go missed" and fly to 0T3, where I currently keep my plane, which is only about 5nm away. A "look and go" so to speak.

A wise thing to do? No. But I enjoy them immensely and there are no houses less than 1/2 mile from my flight path...except mine.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
What is the record on buzz jobs; have a lot of people on the ground been killed doing it? Just seems like the flap that follows them is out of proportion. Zoom, its over.

We all know its against the law and generally condemned, but I was wondering if it was an emotional reaction to the sight, the noise or if there was an actual physical hazard to the public's life and limb.

http://www.srcfiles.com/aalaw/203.pdf
http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-sm-pier-jet-buzz,0,404915.story
Click to expand...

Are passengers the public? Though not as common as single pilot shenanigans, it happens...
 
Dunno 'bout anyone getting killed, but I remember reading an enforcement case in which someone was thrown from a horse and seriously injured when someone buzzed them. If anyone needs proof, search the NTSB Opinions & Order site for violations of 91.119.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
What is the record on buzz jobs; have a lot of people on the ground been killed doing it? Just seems like the flap that follows them is out of proportion. Zoom, its over.

We all know its against the law and generally condemned, but I was wondering if it was an emotional reaction to the sight, the noise or if there was an actual physical hazard to the public's life and limb.

http://www.srcfiles.com/aalaw/203.pdf
http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-sm-pier-jet-buzz,0,404915.story
Click to expand...

I work in human factors flight safety connected with display flying so I'm familiar with the "buzzing" scenario. Our pilots work professionally every day with unrestricted aerobatic waivers so the scenario and it's ramifications are quite familiar to us.
There are several factors involving flight safety mostly connected to the pilot end of the buzz equation. Regulations aside, there are a lot of things that can bite you doing a buzz job and nearly all of them are unpleasant.
First and foremost, the environment can be deadly. You are down in the bird's flight arena in most all buzz jobs and a bird hit at what most certainly will be at above normal airspeed can have devastating effects on the aircraft. This can easily take you out alone or into the people below.
Then there is a possible unfamiliarity with the low altitude high speed environment by a pilot not accustomed to being in that environment. There are thermals, wind shifts, and even sheers that you might easily have to deal with during a low altitude high speed pass. Terrain perspectives and visual cues are different, come at you with a speed you might not be used to and can bite you quickly.
Then there is always the danger of accelerated stall at the end of the pass as a buzzing pilot pulls up invariably with a banking climbing turn that increases the stall speed of the airplane. Add to this any pro-skid doghouse and things could get busy for you quite quickly.

Pilots prone to doing it are also prone to pushing it down just a bit lower than they are competent to handle it and perhaps doing it a bit faster than they are normally used to flying.
ALL low flying is dangerous. The error margin can go all the way to zero in certain conditions. Proactive control pressures can become reactive control pressures and that coupled with a severely reduced response time line in any emergency, even considering non emergency can be a real problem for a buzzing pilot.
Generally speaking, buzzing isn't a good idea. Keep in mind I've not gone very deeply into this issue but the basics are here anyway.
Hope this helps toward a better understanding.
Dudley Henriques
 
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Ask Ozzy Osbourne how he feels about buzzing sometime, I bet he has some good reasons to avoid it.
 
I'd think that in addition to all the hazards Mr Henriques mentioned, simple engine failure can be quite a bit worse down low. At least that's what I'm thinking about when I'm doing a buzz job.
 
SkyHog said:
Ask Ozzy Osbourne how he feels about buzzing sometime, I bet he has some good reasons to avoid it.
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Ugh, the Randy Rhodes buzz job crash...Didn't they hit the tour bus and then a house?


Trapper John
 
gprellwitz said:
But Dave, here in the Bahamas, are we subject to FAA rules? :rofl:

And do you want me to make a "low pass" when I leave Treasure Cay or on your behalf at Green Turtle Yacht Club??

I will admit that we did a "low" pass over Diz's place when we left and wagged our wings. But I'll hasten to note that the "low" pass was above 500'AGL!
Click to expand...

Low pass's are appreciated at our place:D and as long as you don't dent our metal roof, or grind and spray pine needles on us, it's all good.
At 6Y9 it is advised as we have deer,coyote's,ravens,crows,geese,sandhill cranes ,etc. that sometimes cross or land on the runway.
Low pass's are recommended for safety:yesnod:
Be very careful on the high pass's as we have bald eagles up soaring high overhead, and don't forget were in Big Bear MOA and have a few F-16 eagles around also:rolleyes:
 
wby0nder said:
I'd think that in addition to all the hazards Mr Henriques mentioned, simple engine failure can be quite a bit worse down low. At least that's what I'm thinking about when I'm doing a buzz job.
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One reason why you should either have lots of speed (energy).:D
 
The edges of the sky have always contained more risk than the middle of it.
 
Keith Lane said:
Pretty good write-up of the "accident" here.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006051816388

I use quotes because it sounds more like he had a death wish to me. Too bad he took out other people, someone else's plane (without permission to use, let alone destroy), and someone's house in the process.
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Seems like a lot of effort for the bus driver to go through to accomplish what he did. It would be easier to just crash the bus, rather than steal a plane then hit the bus...


Trapper John
 
I have re-read the thread and I glean that the answer to my question is:

'No', there is very little actual physical risk to the public on the ground from buzz jobs as there have been few, to no instances where this has resulted in incidents in the past.

My inference from this is that 'yes', most of the public and media reaction to such instances is emotional, and not based upon an actual physical threat.

Reminder: I am not saying or inferring here that buzzing is good or we should change the rules, or watch for me to rip up DFW with my airplane soon.... or anything of that nature.

Sometimes, I do just like to strip away all the nonsense and look at only the facts.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
'No', there is very little actual physical risk to the public on the ground from buzz jobs as there have been few, to no instances where this has resulted in incidents in the past.
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Obviously the risk to the public goes up as the both the airplane size and the population density increases. Buzzing in a little airplane produces little risk to the people on the ground. Buzzing and doing impromptu aerobatics in your military jet trainer over the Santa Monica pier is another story. Here is what can happen when a maneuver gets screwed up over a big crowd of people.
 
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