Buying and Renting...

[Snaggletooth]

I'm closing in on my PP-ASEL Checkride, and at some point I plan to buy my own plane. Probably a PA-28-140. But I have a few questions.

1. About how much is a normal 100hr and annual inspection cost for a PA-28-140?

With that being said, I pan to rent Aircraft for the time being. Question....

1. Do I need to have some kind of insurance to rent a plane? if so, about how much is it, and would it be better to rent or own the Aircraft in terms of cost?

 

[wildwobby]

I'm closing in on my PP-ASEL Checkride, and at some point I plan to buy my own plane. Probably a PA-28-140. But I have a few questions.

1. About how much is a normal 100hr and annual inspection cost for a PA-28-140?

With that being said, I pan to rent Aircraft for the time being. Question....

1. Do I need to have some kind of insurance to rent a plane? if so, about how much is it, and would it be better to rent or own the Aircraft in terms of cost?

I don't have an answer for #1, but I can tell you that it probably varies. As for #1 (2), that depends on how much you fly, and what plane. Generally, if flying very often and you need the scheduling flexibility, owning is better, otherwise renting is better (at least cost-wise).

Don't be mistaken though. It ain't cheap either way.

 

[taters]

I'm closing in on my PP-ASEL Checkride, and at some point I plan to buy my own plane. Probably a PA-28-140. But I have a few questions.

1. About how much is a normal 100hr and annual inspection cost for a PA-28-140?

normal is a setting on a dryer.....


Id budget 350 for the inspection plus squawks....so probably total of 500 to 800 an average when things are in shape ...however it can easily turn into 1500+ once in a while as life limited parts go....engine rebuild 13-15k....this has all been my experience with a cessna 150 and a pa28-180 that I rent out....the little cessna has actually cost me more than the piper to maintain so far..Try to do owner-assited annuals and buy some parts on your own ahead of time...that can save you a bundle right there.

 

[Snaggletooth]

Thanks for the posts guys. Just what I was looking for.

 

[Bob Noel]

I'm closing in on my PP-ASEL Checkride, and at some point I plan to buy my own plane. Probably a PA-28-140. But I have a few questions.

1. About how much is a normal 100hr and annual inspection cost for a PA-28-140?

Is there a reason you want 100hr inspections done?

I usually budget $1000/year for the annual inspection and annual service
on my cherokee 140.

Note that the maintenance costs of the cherokee 140 will cost about the
same as a cherokee 180. In other words, the difference in ownership
costs of a 140 vs 180 is pretty much the purchase cost (insurance
will be a little higher on a 180 because of the higher hull value).
So, if you think you'd rather have the extra useful load of a 180
and slightly higher climb rate and speed then it would make sense
to save up a little more and buy a 180 rather than a 140.

 

[bigred177]

Look on the FBO's bulletin board at the planes for sale. I imagine at least 50% don't want to sell but are because they don't fly enough and the plane is rotting. Talk to them and see if one might be interested in renting the plane to you for a dry rate. That way, you get the flexibility since the owner isn't flying, but you don't have the cost of owning and the surprises of maintenance. I bet if you call enough people of hang out at the airprt long enough you can find one.

You will need your own insurance and be added on to his policy since you will definitely not meet the open pilot warranty, so you will have a little extra cost there. Good thing about having your own insurance though is if you ever do ding a rental plane, you don't have to worry about a deductible. I think for $25,000 of hull coverage and whatever liability I have it's like $350/yr. Costs less per hour the more you fly .

Something to think about, until you're rich and famous, then it doesn't matter.

 

[silver-eagle]

100 hour maintenance cycles are only needed if the plane is being used in the flight school environment. If you're not doing a leaseback, it's your plane and can get by with just an annual. Those will vary based on what is done. You also do not have to worry much about the manufacturers time to major overhaul. As long as the engine is providing good power, you can probably keep going. If on leaseback, many schools have rules about overhauls and manufacturers recommendations, so your costs WILL increase.
You also need to start planning to pay for your maintenance. The easiest way is to rob a bank, win the lottery or be given a huge inheritance. The next best is to know the costs per hour and start saving that much a month. You might find it handy to have a separate savings account for the airplane.
If renting, you should ALREADY have rental insurance. You need to protect yourself from incidents and accidents even during your training. Many flight schools insurance coverage have significant limitations before the coverage kicks in. Rental insurance is cheap enough.
For your own plane, time in type and recurring training helps lower your annual. Sign up for the FAA Wings. Do classes online. Attend local Wings sponsored events. Gather all the brownie points you can to help reduce your insurance. And just because you have your pilot's cert doesn't mean you can't fly with an instructor.

 

[Mooneymike]

I charge 15 hours for any fixed gear single for 100hr/annual inspection, me doing all the work. If the owner wishes to get involved in the maintenance process that goes down to 5 hours if he/she does all the grunt work. I used hours as maintenance dollar/hour charges are very regional.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You want to know how much it costs to own an airplane?

Learn about accounting. Join a flying club. Become the treasurer of that flying club, so you get to pay all the bills. THEN you'll know how much it costs to own an airplane.

BTW, I think 500-800 for an annual is VERY optimistic. I'm really happy when we pay $1500 (including squawks), and we had to shop around for a few years to find a mechanic that would do it that cheap *and* do good work. Prior to that, we were spending $3000 and change every year. But even with a reasonably-priced shop that does good work, every once in a while they find that all four of your cylinders are cracked and need to be replaced. That raised that annual to about $7500.

Oh, and you'll be amazed at the parts costs. That little strip of metal with the rubber coating that keeps the door of your Cessna from opening far enough to hit the strut? Yeah, that's $260 and breaks about once a year. Sheesh, I can make a piece of metal that breaks for $260. Oh, and if you take 10 cents worth of sheet metal, bend it 90 degrees, and hook it up to a 50-cent microswitch and call it a "Lift Detector" it costs $1,000. Add a small resistive heater and it costs $1,500. Ugh.

 

[AuntPeggy]

You want to know how much it costs to own an airplane?

Learn about accounting. Join a flying club. Become the treasurer of that flying club, so you get to pay all the bills. THEN you'll know how much it costs to own an airplane.

Despite the grumbling, this is probably the best advice here.

 

[Bob Noel]

Despite the grumbling, this is probably the best advice here.

yep - nothing like buying and owning an airplane to learn about
buying and owning an airplane.

That's both good and bad.

 

[poadeleted20]

1. About how much is a normal 100hr and annual inspection cost for a PA-28-140?

Unless you're giving instruction in your Cherokee, there's no requirement for a 100-hour inspection, and most owner/pilots don't fly 100 hours before annual comes due, anyway. For more on ownership costs for a plane like this, email me for a copy of the paper I did on the subject. That's email -- no posts, PM's, carrier pigeons, thought waves, or smoke signals.

1. Do I need to have some kind of insurance to rent a plane?

The "need" for renter's insurance (technically, a "non-owned" policy) is usually a financial question, not regulatory, although some FBO's are now requiring renters to have it. Basically, you have to ask yourself how you would pay for it if you pranged the plane and the owner sued you for the deductible, or the owner's insurer subrogated against you for the entire value of the plane. Or, if someone else got hurt (either a passenger or a third party), and they sued you (as the pilot) for damages arising. If you couldn't come up with the money even to pay a lawyer some tens of thousands of dollars to defend you, you'd be wise to get that insurance.

if so, about how much is it

Cost depends on coverage.

How much hull insurance? Enough just to cover the owner's deductibe? Enough to pay for any likely damage (like an off-runway excursion trashing the engine and prop -- $25K or so)? Enough to cover the whole cost of the plane? You'd have to take a look at the owner's policy to see what your liabilities are in such a situation -- how big is the deductible, is there a waiver of subrogation for authorized pilots, how much is the plane worth, etc.

How much liability? Most folks carry $1M. That's usually enough to settle most third-party claims while still remaining affordable.

and would it be better to rent or own the Aircraft in terms of cost?

The financial break-even point is usually in the range of 100-200 hours per year, depending on how much capital is tied up in the plane.

 

[poadeleted20]

Id budget 350 for the inspection plus squawks....so probably total of 500 to 800 an average when things are in shape ...however it can easily turn into 1500+ once in a while as life limited parts go....engine rebuild 13-15k

Having owned four different planes over the last 32 years, I think these numbers are on the low side unless you can do most of the work yourself.

 

[Henning]

Your annual on a PA-28 140 will be between $425 and $37,425.

Renters insurance is a good idea unless you rent from an FBO that has a non subrogation clause in their policy (used to be standard, not so much anymore). Many FBOs require renters insurance, some will sell it directly for an extra $5hr or so.

 

[EdFred]

3 of the 4 years I owned my PA28-180 my annuals averaged $650 including all squawk fixes. The other year it was around $2500. (Cracks in the trim tab required skin replacement and paint)

Average over 4 years...about $1125.

 

[poadeleted20]

Renters insurance is a good idea unless you rent from an FBO that has a non subrogation clause in their policy (used to be standard, not so much anymore).

Even a waiver of subrogation won't protect you from third-party liability unless the aircraft owner's policy includes you as a named insured, not just an authorized pilot, and not many FBO's do that for renter pilots.

 

[hindsight2020]

You want to know how much it costs to own an airplane?

Learn about accounting. Join a flying club. Become the treasurer of that flying club, so you get to pay all the bills. THEN you'll know how much it costs to own an airplane.

BTW, I think 500-800 for an annual is VERY optimistic. I'm really happy when we pay $1500 (including squawks), and we had to shop around for a few years to find a mechanic that would do it that cheap *and* do good work. Prior to that, we were spending $3000 and change every year. But even with a reasonably-priced shop that does good work, every once in a while they find that all four of your cylinders are cracked and need to be replaced. That raised that annual to about $7500.

Oh, and you'll be amazed at the parts costs. That little strip of metal with the rubber coating that keeps the door of your Cessna from opening far enough to hit the strut? Yeah, that's $260 and breaks about once a year. Sheesh, I can make a piece of metal that breaks for $260. Oh, and if you take 10 cents worth of sheet metal, bend it 90 degrees, and hook it up to a 50-cent microswitch and call it a "Lift Detector" it costs $1,000. Add a small resistive heater and it costs $1,500. Ugh.

I second your frustration. I own a ratted out 150 and it was like rolling the dice with the first annual. Came out $1300 in the hole and no cylinders pulled. Wiring harness was the only big ticket item (a wiring harness for 4 hondo...what a joke). I was jumping for joy. I won't get lucky next year. The volatility of cost is really unjustified for what these things are mechanically. The middleman approach to maintenance does nothing to help the cost issue. It's really disheartening.

PMA parts are a joke. About the only thing I can see that would insulate you from the cost would be going experimental (my next airplane move). Even then, you won't be able to sidestep much of that cost on the engine side of the equation if you go with the Lyco or continental flavor.

As far as renter's insurance, it's a good deal when you consider the risk of subrogation. That said, I rented for 10 years and never carried it. Boy was it great to be DUMB about the "what if". If I had taken the well-thought-after advice provided here I would have never driven to the airport, let alone fly an airplane. This is not to discredit the advice, I wholeheartedly agree with it, but at some point man you just gotta roll the dice and say "here we go..". Good luck, sounds like we're all one off-field landing away from destitution and a life-regretting desire to do something more than sit at home and hope nothing bad happens.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Despite the grumbling, this is probably the best advice here.

Sorry, didn't mean to grumble. That is one reason why I became treasurer of the club, though - I got to learn what to expect out of ownership, while spending other people's money instead of my own. My view of things is much less rosy now, but it didn't completely cure me of wanting to own my own airplane. It simply gave me more realistic budgeting skills.

 

[Snaggletooth]

I think I'll just rent for a while. lol

I know a place at AXH where I can rent 172's, a 152 (My favorite plane to fly is a 152), and a Cherokee.
I can always rent my CFI's plane too.

 

[gprellwitz]

I think I'll just rent for a while. lol

I know a place at AXH where I can rent 172's, a 152 (My favorite plane to fly is a 152), and a Cherokee.
I can always rent my CFI's plane too.

Hey, here in the Chicago area I can rent a Champ, C152, C172 (including a G1000), C182 (NA or turbo), C210 (turbo), C310, Beech Sierra, and Piper Archer from a single FBO. Hard to beat! (Oh yeah, they have a couple of helicopters, too!) Between Leslie and me, we put on 100 - 150 hours/year. Despite all those who have told us that owning is in our future, we've still stuck by renting. The variety and availability really make a difference.