Buying a "sitting" plane

PilotRPI

PilotRPI

Line Up and Wait
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PilotRPI
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I found a plane that is darn near everything I've been looking for, but it has been sitting for 2-3 years. Everyone I know of that has bought a plane with an engine that sat for any period of time had some serious near-term issues.

Any of you buy a plane that sat for a bit and have no problems after a few years of flying? It is an O-320, so I am concerned with the rust rod, I mean cam, as well as other types of corrosion that could happen. No recent oil analysis to check.

Lycoming needs to put a borescope plug in their case so the cams can be checked.

Thanks!
 
More info would be helpful. If your interested get a good pre purchase with,compression check. And a borescope inspection.
 
I'd say have a mechanic do a good pre buy on it, not just the engine but the whole airframe.
 
Ryanb said:
I'd say have a mechanic do a good pre buy on it, not just the engine but the whole airframe.
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Agreed.....
And your offer price should include a " margin" for future engine work...IMHO..
 
I would ask whether or not the engine was pickled before it started sitting.
 
Lots of variables. It might be perfect after sitting out a few years and your buddy's down the field may be rusting and spalling even though he flies it occasionally. Your concerns aren't unwarranted but it's simple to pull a cylinder or two and look at the cam with your own eyes. Make a clean cam a condition of sale. You pay for a clean exam, he pays for a fail. Or make a different agreement. It isn't insurmountable.
 
PilotRPI said:
I found a plane that is darn near everything I've been looking for, but it has been sitting for 2-3 years. Everyone I know of that has bought a plane with an engine that sat for any period of time had some serious near-term issues.

Any of you buy a plane that sat for a bit and have no problems after a few years of flying? It is an O-320, so I am concerned with the rust rod, I mean cam, as well as other types of corrosion that could happen. No recent oil analysis to check.

Lycoming needs to put a borescope plug in their case so the cams can be checked.

Thanks!
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Who cares, do a good prebuy and test flight and go from there, I wouldn't mind a plane that sat for a while. Unlike what some folks on this board like you to think the plane wont turn to dust if you don't fly it every other day.
 
Stewartb said:
Lots of variables. It might be perfect after sitting out a few years and your buddy's down the field may be rusting and spalling even though he flies it occasionally. Your concerns aren't unwarranted but it's simple to pull a cylinder or two and look at the cam with your own eyes. Make a clean cam a condition of sale. You pay for a clean exam, he pays for a fail. Or make a different agreement. It isn't insurmountable.
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Pull a cylinder or two??

Here's a great opportunity to pull two cylinders and say "OMG" and walk off.

Leaving the seller to pay to put them back on.

And what A&P would do that with out doing the whole top end?
 
I watched a 182 fire up the other day that sat on our field for three years until it had all flat tires, water in the fuel, and looked like hell. (It flew in looking like hell)

It was a weed seizure plane that just got auctioned for ~$8000.00. It was a roll of the dice, because the auction company would not let anyone start it.

Somebody got the deal of the century if it doesn't blow up.
 
I bought a plane that sat for about 12 months and had lots of engine problems. It was one of my biggest mistakes.
 
PilotRPI said:
I found a plane that is darn near everything I've been looking for, but it has been sitting for 2-3 years. Everyone I know of that has bought a plane with an engine that sat for any period of time had some serious near-term issues.

Any of you buy a plane that sat for a bit and have no problems after a few years of flying? It is an O-320, so I am concerned with the rust rod, I mean cam, as well as other types of corrosion that could happen. No recent oil analysis to check.

Lycoming needs to put a borescope plug in their case so the cams can be checked.

Thanks!
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You pays your money, you takes your chances, None of these aircraft are new any more. Any of the aircraft that have not set for 2 years could be a big of a money pit as one that did.

I'd buy a cheap dental endoscope and stick it each cylinder and see what you have, If it is rusty, bring each cylinder up to TDC and fill with a light oil such as WD 40, replace the top plug and squeeze it a little with the prop. then drain. starter her up see what happens. run it abut 30 minutes. shut down and change the oil and filter.

the next 10 hours will tell you if you got a good deal.
 
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OBTW, How much time was on the engine prior to lay up?
 
I've had a couple of airplanes that sat for years. I bought an SNJ that sat next to the tower at Spirit Of St Louis airport for 22 years. Took us three days to get it ferryable and flew it home to Twin Falls, ID. Flew that airplane for 8 years and over 400 hrs on that engine. Only had to put one cylinder on it after a couple years. Did two Nanchang CJ-6s that sat in China for several years before being imported. Both had around 400 hr engines and I flew mine 450 hrs before selling it 10 years ago. That engine is still going strong. Just bought another Nanchang that sat for over 8 years in Bountiful, Ut. Went down a couple weeks ago and pulled the wings off and trucked it home. So far stripped the paint and getting the air system sealed up so I can start the engine and see if it is going to be OK. Big project but bought it for 20% of what a nice ones are going for. I'm going to go through this one completely so it might take a year. If you can buy the airplane for 20-30% of retail and can do some of the work yourself it might be a good deal. Here is the progress on the CJ.
 

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Tom-D said:
Pull a cylinder or two??

Here's a great opportunity to pull two cylinders and say "OMG" and walk off.

Leaving the seller to pay to put them back on.

And what A&P would do that with out doing the whole top end?
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If the seller wants to sell it at that point he'll need to do it anyway. Pulling
a couple of cylinders is simple. Why not take a look instead of wondering? You seem surprised at this idea. It sure as hell isn't new.
 
It had an overhaul about 5-6 year ago, and had about 500 hours put on it. Then it sat for 2-3 years at the end. Doubt it was pickled. It was in the northeast, but not on the coast.

Agreed things can break on a plane at any time, and of course these things aren't new, but if you know there can be expensive fixes with disuse, I'd rather mitigate that risk. Every person I know that bought an 4 cylinder lycoming that sat, yes every single one, had serious money issues with that engine a little later on, so was curious if anyone was able to avoid that pitfall. Seems like most run into issues or regret it.

Agreed that sellers wouldn't be happy having cylinders pulled on their engines. I would never ask that if the plane flew regularly since its overhaul, and even better if you have oil analyses done. But if you failed to take care of it and put it into a known condition that likely causes a very expensive cam issue, then it looks like pulling at least one cylinder is the way to go. If you cared so much about your engine, you should have been flying it in the first place!

I will be doing a prebuy to the level of an annual inspection with any plane I buy. I figure I will put a deposit in escrow, and sign a purchase agreement that says I can back out of the deal or renegotiate price only if necessary repairs found during that prebuy exceed an agreed amount. I'll put something in there as well that the plane will be put back together, because I'm not a di#k.
 
PilotRPI said:
It had an overhaul about 5-6 year ago, and had about 500 hours put on it. Then it sat for 2-3 years at the end. Doubt it was pickled. It was in the northeast, but not on the coast.

Agreed things can break on a plane at any time, and of course these things aren't new, but if you know there can be expensive fixes with disuse, I'd rather mitigate that risk. Every person I know that bought an 4 cylinder lycoming that sat, yes every single one, had serious money issues with that engine a little later on, so was curious if anyone was able to avoid that pitfall. Seems like most run into issues or regret it.

Agreed that sellers wouldn't be happy having cylinders pulled on their engines. I would never ask that if the plane flew regularly since its overhaul, and even better if you have oil analyses done. But if you failed to take care of it and put it into a known condition that likely causes a very expensive cam issue, then it looks like pulling at least one cylinder is the way to go. If you cared so much about your engine, you should have been flying it in the first place!

I will be doing a prebuy to the level of an annual inspection with any plane I buy. I figure I will put a deposit in escrow, and sign a purchase agreement that says I can back out of the deal or renegotiate price only if necessary repairs found during that prebuy exceed an agreed amount. I'll put something in there as well that the plane will be put back together, because I'm not a di#k.
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Just offer a fair but low price with the terms you are comfortable with... Do the escrow thing and hope it works out for both of you....

Remember, if an A&P pulls a cylinder and the motor does have serious issues, he can't just bolt it back together and sign it off as airworthy.. The owner is stuck with a grounded plane..... he might then revisit the asking price...
 
PilotRPI said:
It had an overhaul about 5-6 year ago, and had about 500 hours put on it. Then it sat for 2-3 years at the end. Doubt it was pickled. It was in the northeast, but not on the coast.
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Sounds very *very* similar to the history of my airplane, except mine was in Louisiana. Mine wasn't pickled either but is strong and running great now.
 
Run the engine first before you make an offer or do a complete pre buy. Make sure it gets pre oiled and give it a good run up including a full power check. Then do the compression check and drop all the screens and open up the oil filter. It probably will be just fine. Don
 
yakdriver said:
Here is the progress on the CJ.
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Saw SCUBA AL80 tanks in photo 3 and 4... Are they just being stored there or being used as part of your restoration process?
 
Unless it's a rare, hard to find plane, pass.
 
Stewartb said:
If the seller wants to sell it at that point he'll need to do it anyway. Pulling
a couple of cylinders is simple. Why not take a look instead of wondering? You seem surprised at this idea. It sure as hell isn't new.
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Not surprised, the idea is as old as dirt. Would you allow a buyer to do that to any thing you are selling?
 
Probably. Unless I was selling it with the engine condition assumed to be bad. Good is good. I don't have a problem validating it if that's what I say it is.

Slow day? You just need something to argue about? I have better things to do, so you'll have to go it alone.
 
Stewartb said:
Probably. Unless I was selling it with the engine condition assumed to be bad. Good is good. I don't have a problem validating it if that's what I say it is.

Slow day? You just need something to argue about? I have better things to do, so you'll have to go it alone.
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I see you are hear too, answering every post. ???


The tire kickers always assume the engine is bad.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Saw SCUBA AL80 tanks in photo 3 and 4... Are they just being stored there or being used as part of your restoration process?
Click to expand...

The CJ is all Pneumatic. 850 psi system that runs the retracts, flaps, brakes and engine start. A scuba tank will charge the system about 10 times. Don
 
I was the second buyer of an airplane that sat in a coastal area for a long time. Mine has a Lycoming and they were still able to drop a borescope down through the oil filler and check the cam - and it was shot. Resulted in seller agreeing to a big expensive repair and we completed the sale several months later.

My experience.
 
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If you're buying a 20+yr old plane with under 10,000TT guess what, it occasionally sat and maybe didn't get flown for months or maybe a year on end.

So you're wanting a 10,000hr airframe, a total time that doesn't sell well or for much, thus telling you something.

OR

Buying a plane that sat isn't bad, most of the planes on the higher end of the market, are low time planes, my 78' 185 has under 3k TT, it didn't fly much
 
My Champ sat for about three years outside. It looked like hell before I cleaned it up and I got it for practically nothing but after changing the oil and putting new tires on it it's flown about 700 trouble free hours over the past five years.

Of course that has no bearing or relation to your specific case so as an example it's meaningless.
 
PilotRPI said:
I found a plane that is darn near everything I've been looking for, but it has been sitting for 2-3 years. Everyone I know of that has bought a plane with an engine that sat for any period of time had some serious near-term issues.

Any of you buy a plane that sat for a bit and have no problems after a few years of flying? It is an O-320, so I am concerned with the rust rod, I mean cam, as well as other types of corrosion that could happen. No recent oil analysis to check.

Lycoming needs to put a borescope plug in their case so the cams can be checked.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Is the plane priced accordingly to needing a cam replacement? Is there a risk, you bet. Look at the whole deal. "Would the plane still be worth it at $5k more?", that's a question you need to ask yourself.

That said, you can hedge your risk on the prebuy by pulling a cylinder and inspecting the cam, now you have direct data to negotiate with.

If you do make a deal on a plane with a rusted cam engine, wanna do an experiment? It can't really hurt anything, you already plan on replacing the cam and tappets. While you have the cylinder off and the oil drain plug out, take some CRC Electomotive or Brake Clean and spray down the cam and tappets. Next put some Ospho (phosphoric acid) in a spray bottle and soak down the cam and tappets, make sure you turn the engine over a couple of times to make sure you get it all, and then walk away and let it dry.

What this does is it changes the structure of the iron from rust to magnetite which is much less abrasive.

Next flush the entire inside of the crank case with Stoddard Solvent (Coleman Lanten Fuel, Naptha.... They're all the same for this purpose) and let sit overnight before you put the jug back on. Fill with 6 quarts of XC-20/50 and a double dose of Camguard and go run an hour to let heat do its thing to any residuals.

At 1500' establish a baseline speed for full throttle, full rich. See how long it takes to lose 5 kts.
 
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Tom-D said:
Pull a cylinder or two??

Here's a great opportunity to pull two cylinders and say "OMG" and walk off.

Leaving the seller to pay to put them back on.

And what A&P would do that with out doing the whole top end?
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Easy, pay the mechanic ahead of time to complete the full scope of work. The buyer can walk away at any time, they got what they were paying for and the mechanic buttons it up for the owner to take back.
 
There are other options to make a deal work like escrow hold options. There's a dozen functional ways to deal with this issue, but engine issues should not determine whether or not to buy a plane, because engine issues are the least costly to deal with on a big picture basis because of residual value issues.

The main determinant on whether you buy a plane or not should always be airframe condition. Airframe repairs are compound cost, not only are the repairs expensive, they reduce the resale value. If you are looking at a super clean, 0 corrosion airframe, it is worth paying a premium for as you will save that in multiples against future expenses.
 
Henning said:
Easy, pay the mechanic ahead of time to complete the full scope of work. The buyer can walk away at any time, they got what they were paying for and the mechanic buttons it up for the owner to take back.
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That's never going to happen in real world, the buyer won't pony up the money, they want it new and cheap.

If you saw any 1960's aircraft advertised as 0 since major and 1200 TT. every one here would be asking why?
and have a dozen fears as to why the aircraft had only 1200 TT.
 
Tom-D said:
That's never going to happen in real world, the buyer won't pony up the money, they want it new and cheap.

If you saw any 1960's aircraft advertised as 0 since major and 1200 TT. every one here would be asking why?
and have a dozen fears as to why the aircraft had only 1200 TT.
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:confused: Sorry, not sure what world you're living in, but every time I get a prebuy done for someone, the shop has the card to pay on and authorization to bill it before they turn a wrench. It's pretty common practice really.
 
Tom-D said:
That's never going to happen in real world, the buyer won't pony up the money, they want it new and cheap.
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Yes they will. I ponied up to have my pre-buy done right. And I had to walk away when we found a spalling cam. But the bill was paid.

That said, I don't think my mechanic had to pull a cylinder. I thought he said he was able to fish his GE borescope down through the oil filler tube, which is obviously much cheaper.

The deal eventually got done after the seller agreed to repairs, but I accepted that the pre-buy was fully on me.
 
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Tom-D said:
Pull a cylinder or two??

Here's a great opportunity to pull two cylinders and say "OMG" and walk off.

Leaving the seller to pay to put them back on.

And what A&P would do that with out doing the whole top end?
Click to expand...

There is no way I would let any prospective buyer tear into my engine or reduce the price for "future" engine work, it is take it or move on, in over 30 years and 40 airplanes has anyone done more than a look over and a compression test, all have bought the airplane, I find the one that want a big price reduction are not serious and will use any excuse but what they are really saying is I am not interested.

The buyer pays all inspection costs and he brings his mechanic to me, I don't screw around with buyers that want it all their way but then I tell them everything about the airplane, be honest and forthcoming.

An airplane that sits is not a bad airplane, heck anymore most are sitting anymore,
 
strangebird said:
There is no way I would let any prospective buyer tear into my engine or reduce the price for "future" engine work, it is take it or move on, in over 30 years and 40 airplanes has anyone done more than a look over and a compression test, all have bought the airplane, I find the one that want a big price reduction are not serious and will use any excuse but what they are really saying is I am not interested.

The buyer pays all inspection costs and he brings his mechanic to me, I don't screw around with buyers that want it all their way but then I tell them everything about the airplane, be honest and forthcoming.

An airplane that sits is not a bad airplane, heck anymore most are sitting anymore,
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That's why the borescope is critical. It is incontrovertible one way or the other. You say you're selling me a clean engine... I say I'll pay to prove that. You disagree and I walk, simple as that.
 
Again, look at the complete deal. A camshaft alone should not break an otherwise good deal on a good airplane, especially when it's "damn near everything I was looking for." If you are going to wait for the perfect deal, you will die waiting for it.

"If I have to put a camshaft in it, will it still be a reasonable value?"

If you do end up doing a camshaft on a 500hr engine, there is a good chance that most of your parts still qualify to go back in on an "overhaul", so for a relatively small premium of required services to be able to call it an overhaul, you can come out with a $24,000 book value increase for under $10k along with the cam repair.
 
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