Buying a project plane

[KSCessnaDriver]

I'm looking at a specific model of airplane (Stinson 10A) and seem to be finding a significantly higher number of projects than I am finding airworthy airplanes. My question lies in this area. What would one expect to pay to take a project plane to get it built? An outrageous amount or something that would be realistic for the size and price of airplane?

Say the project really only needed assembled, covered, painted and an engine hung on the airframe.

 

[Skylane81E]

More than a flying example

 

[kyleb]

A cover job on something like that is gonna be well into the teens.

When you say "needs assembled" is everything really fixed, primed, painted, and ready to bolt together? I think you're looking at a couple of hundred hours (at least) of shop labor to do that, even if nothing needs repairs or paint. That's $10k at $50/hr.

So, you're looking at a floor of $25k to have the work professionally done.

Old airplanes are a money pit if you don't do most of the work yourself. That's why you see so many people covering their own airplanes. You can do it in 6 months of your spare time with an investment of $4-5k in materials and equipment.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

If your aren't a A&P or own a shop that employes A&Ps forget about it.

If you aren't a A&P and live on outside of middle America (I.e you live somewhere like CA, NY, etc) forget about it twice, as you will get raped on paying folks to do the work, much more so then if you lived somewhere like GA.

 

[BurtM]

I'm looking at a specific model of airplane (Stinson 10A) and seem to be finding a significantly higher number of projects than I am finding airworthy airplanes. My question lies in this area. What would one expect to pay to take a project plane to get it built? An outrageous amount or something that would be realistic for the size and price of airplane?

Say the project really only needed assembled, covered, painted and an engine hung on the airframe.

One of the big challenges with buying a project is knowing that everything is there.

Take the plane you are most familiar with. If there was one that was in big hunks with the little pieces in Pampers and Bisquik boxes, could you tell what was missing? Could you identify all the pieces and determine that they were airworthy or could be with just a little work?

If not, you really don't have any business buying it.

People go through this all the time with old cars. When I say "people" that would not include me . The good thing about old cars is there is no strict definition of roadworthy. With airplanes there are some pretty strict definitions of airworthy. I don't know anyone that has ever bought a basket case car and come out whole. In fact, most of the people I know that have even gotten to the point of getting a basket case car back on the road, and that's maybe one out of 10, ended up spending way more than they would have buying a good example in the first place.

 

[BurtM]

When you say "needs assembled" is everything really fixed, primed, painted, and ready to bolt together?

Yep, and there's not that much that bolts together on a small single other than engine mount to firewall, gear attach points, wing attach points, a few bolts in the tail, etc. The rest is riveted, and you don't get tungsten bucking bars at Home Depot...

And there are some people that would prime and paint parts to cover up problems, too...

"Needs assembled" ads on Barnstormers are a cue to run away. Just like most of the "friend of owner" ads on there.

 

[kyleb]

Yep, and there's not that much that bolts together on a small single other than engine mount to firewall, gear attach points, wing attach points, a few bolts in the tail, etc. The rest is riveted, and you don't get tungsten bucking bars at Home Depot...

And there are some people that would prime and paint parts to cover up problems, too...

"Needs assembled" ads on Barnstormers are a cue to run away. Just like most of the "friend of owner" ads on there.

I agree with ya. But I will say that I was using "bolt together" in lieu of "assemble". There are control systems, instrument panels, windows, doors, floorboards, interior panels, headliners, trim systems, fuel tanks, engine auxiliaries, cowlings, and a gazillion other items that bolt, screw, or strap right on. But on an old airplane, you spend so much time getting everything to fit properly, find the right hold down strap, etc. The time really adds up.

In some ways, homebuilts are a faster build than the complete restoration of a certified aircraft. You make the parts, instead of having to track them down. Some of the parts are available new and un-butchered. There are no unobtainable parts.

<Sez the guy who is working on one Aeronca project and has two other ones lined up behind the first one.>

 

[gismo]

I'm looking at a specific model of airplane (Stinson 10A) and seem to be finding a significantly higher number of projects than I am finding airworthy airplanes. My question lies in this area. What would one expect to pay to take a project plane to get it built? An outrageous amount or something that would be realistic for the size and price of airplane?

Say the project really only needed assembled, covered, painted and an engine hung on the airframe.

FWIW, my brother in law has what he says is a fairly nice 108 that he wants to sell. I think he's looking for something like 25k.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

If your aren't a A&P or own a shop that employes A&Ps forget about it.

That's more or less what I was thinking, but just wanted to see what the opinion of the masses was.

Yep, and there's not that much that bolts together on a small single other than engine mount to firewall, gear attach points, wing attach points, a few bolts in the tail, etc. The rest is riveted, and you don't get tungsten bucking bars at Home Depot...

"Needs assembled" ads on Barnstormers are a cue to run away. Just like most of the "friend of owner" ads on there.

Well, there is some more, its a fabric airplane. So, cover the plane in fabric, take care of any woodrot issues, etc...

But regardless, I'm just looking for now.

FWIW, my brother in law has what he says is a fairly nice 108 that he wants to sell. I think he's looking for something like 25k.

Not really looking for a 108. It seems like every time I've posted an ad for the 10A I get 2-3x the number of responses about a 108 than an actual 10A. Not that there is anything wrong with a 108, but for my intended mission, a 108 isn't going to work.

 

[Skylane81E]

If you want to rebuild one, then go for it, but if you just want the plane then hold out for one ready to go

 

[Tom-D]

I'm looking at a specific model of airplane (Stinson 10A) and seem to be finding a significantly higher number of projects than I am finding airworthy airplanes. My question lies in this area. What would one expect to pay to take a project plane to get it built? An outrageous amount or something that would be realistic for the size and price of airplane?

Say the project really only needed assembled, covered, painted and an engine hung on the airframe.

A Stinson Model 10 is a pretty rare aircraft. the reason there so few made is because when they were new they were an underpowered POS.

But a project is a project and if you want to do it, have a go at it, it is fun to build.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

A Stinson Model 10 is a pretty rare aircraft. the reason there so few made is because when they were new they were an underpowered POS.

But a project is a project and if you want to do it, have a go at it, it is fun to build.

Sure, they may be underpowered from the factory, but the modifications to put a O-235 or O-290 on them turn them into a decent little airplane. I'd really like to have one done up as a CAP patrol plane from WWII, which is why I'm looking. Ideally, I'd just find an airworthy model that has older fabric which could be replaced in a few years.

 

[Tom-D]

Sure, they may be underpowered from the factory, but the modifications to put a O-235 or O-290 on them turn them into a decent little airplane. I'd really like to have one done up as a CAP patrol plane from WWII, which is why I'm looking. Ideally, I'd just find an airworthy model that has older fabric which could be replaced in a few years.

If you have an STC to do that have fun, if you try to develop your own Field approval, the FAA will require you to go the one time STC, have fun.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

If you have an STC to do that have fun, if you try to develop your own Field approval, the FAA will require you to go the one time STC, have fun.

There is an STC for the O-235, which is still maintained by a gentlemen on one of the large Stinson forums. Not sure about the O-290, but the O-235 is a very easy to obtain STC.

 

[Tom-D]

There is an STC for the O-235, which is still maintained by a gentlemen on one of the large Stinson forums. Not sure about the O-290, but the O-235 is a very easy to obtain STC.

That will take it from 90 horse franklin to a 115 horse Lycoming. IMHO not enough.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

That will take it from 90 horse franklin to a 115 horse Lycoming. IMHO not enough.

No different than a 7ECA really. Similar weights, similar power.

 

[BurtM]

There is an STC for the O-235, which is still maintained by a gentlemen on one of the large Stinson forums. Not sure about the O-290, but the O-235 is a very easy to obtain STC.

Lycoming built ten bazillion O-290s for the Air Force for GPUs, start carts, air compressors and tugs. I'm not sure that you could buy any new FAA certified O-290 parts from Lycoming that you could actually use them in an airplane, though. I'm not sure that Lycoming ever intended for the O-290 to end up in aircraft, either.

Besides the Air Force market, there are some early Super Cubs and Tri Pacers that came with O-290s. But not many, and they were probably converted to O-320s back when Johnson or Nixon was president.

And speaking of orphan STCs, someone way back when had an O-290 STC for the C-140. No gross weight increase, either.

 

[jnmeade]

Several of us are looking into a 7AC or something similar. We're coming to the same conclusion - there is no way we can put together an airplane for anything like the expense of buying a good one. And, that doesn't even count for the time involved. One of us is an A&P.
We've given up on the idea and are looking for something flying. (But, what we are seeing is run-out engines - go figure).

 

[Henning]

Say the project really only needed assembled, covered, painted and an engine hung on the airframe.

Only that? It really depends on who you have do it and how much of it you can do. 'Only' those items in a typical shop are going to run in excess of $20k, but you'll have a nice airplane to fly.

 

[Henning]

Several of us are looking into a 7AC or something similar. We're coming to the same conclusion - there is no way we can put together an airplane for anything like the expense of buying a good one. And, that doesn't even count for the time involved. One of us is an A&P.
We've given up on the idea and are looking for something flying. (But, what we are seeing is run-out engines - go figure).

Not a 'good one', a mediocre flying one. 'Good ones' don't come up for sale much and they don't make it to advertisement when they do. As soon as the owner of a good one says "I think I'm gonna sell my..." a few phone calls get made and it's sold. The reason you take on project planes is so you can have a good one.

 

[weirdjim]

With airplanes there are some pretty strict definitions of airworthy.

Really? Enlighten those of us who have struggled with finding these definitions for all of our professional careers.

Jim

 

[Tom-D]

Really? Enlighten those of us who have struggled with finding these definitions for all of our professional careers.

Jim

Start looking in the same place as the FAA's airworthiness would. you'll find a pretty good description of airworthiness in the inspectors hand book.

Try this.
1/23/2003 8130.2E
9. INTERPRETATION OF THE TERM “AIRWORTHY” FOR U.S. TYPE-CERTIFICATED AIRCRAFT. The term “airworthy” is not defined in Title 49, United States Code (49 U.S.C.), or in
14 CFR; however, a clear understanding of its meaning is essential for use in the agency’s airworthiness certification program. Below is a summary of the conditions necessary for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate. A review of case law relating to airworthiness reveals two conditions that must be met for an aircraft to be considered “airworthy.” 49 U.S.C. § 44704(c) and 14 CFR § 21.183(a), (b), and (c) state that the two conditions necessary for issuance of an airworthiness certificate:
a. The aircraft must conform to its TC. Conformity to type design is considered attained when the aircraft configuration and the components installed are consistent with the drawings, specifications, and other data that are part of the TC, which includes any supplemental type certificate (STC) and field approved alterations incorporated into the aircraft.
b. The aircraft must be in a condition for safe operation. This refers to the condition of the aircraft relative to wear and deterioration, for example, skin corrosion, window delamination/crazing, fluid leaks, and tire wear.
NOTE: If one or both of these conditions are not met, the aircraft would be considered unairworthy. Aircraft that have not been issued a TC must meet the requirements of paragraph 9b above.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Only that? It really depends on who you have do it and how much of it you can do. 'Only' those items in a typical shop are going to run in excess of $20k, but you'll have a nice airplane to fly.

Yeah, with the job I'm in now, I could do a grand total of none of it, since all I do is travel. If I was going to do a project, it would have to be once I have a job that isn't 100% travel.

 

[Tom-D]

If you have an un-dieing urge to spend money on any aircraft that will never be worth what you spend, call me I have a project you will enjoy.

 

[Henning]

If you have an un-dieing urge to spend money on any aircraft that will never be worth what you spend, call me I have a project you will enjoy.

If I was going to call you for a plane, it would be forthat pretty project you already did...

 

[Tom-D]

If I was going to call you for a plane, it would be forthat pretty project you already did...

We are in the We're keeping it mode, until the market turns around.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

If I was going to call you for a plane, it would be forthat pretty project you already did...

I was going to say the same thing. Fairchild's are real nice looking airplanes.

 

[Tom-D]

I was going to say the same thing. Fairchild's are real nice looking airplanes.

If you are thinking about a project that is a really good one that is 99.44/100% done, there are a few nickpicking stuff to do and you will get 1 hell of a deal on it.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

We are in the We're keeping it mode, until the market turns around.

Apparently I am too. Sigh.

 

[kyleb]

Apparently I am too. Sigh.

Nobody wants to hear this, but I don't think holding an airplane for "Better Days" is a profitable scheme. There are fewer private pilots every day, so there are fewer potential customers. That, expensive avgas, and the looming ADS-B deadline are gonna hold down aircraft prices.

On the other end of the equation, the airplane costs money just sitting there. The appreciation (if any) isn't gonna overcome the out of pocket expense of just owning the aircraft and keeping it hangared, insured, and in annual.

So if you want an airplane to fly, buy one (or keep one) and have fun.

Otherwise, liquidate, return the residual value to your bank account, and stop the outflow. You'll come out ahead.

 

[Tom-D]

Nobody wants to hear this, but I don't think holding an airplane for "Better Days" is a profitable scheme. There are fewer private pilots every day, so there are fewer potential customers. That, expensive avgas, and the looming ADS-B deadline are gonna hold down aircraft prices.

On the other end of the equation, the airplane costs money just sitting there. The appreciation (if any) isn't gonna overcome the out of pocket expense of just owning the aircraft and keeping it hangared, insured, and in annual.

So if you want an airplane to fly, buy one (or keep one) and have fun.

Otherwise, liquidate, return the residual value to your bank account, and stop the outflow. You'll come out ahead.

When you gotta fly some thing, why not fly the aircraft you have?

 

[Henning]

We are in the We're keeping it mode, until the market turns around.

Me too

 

[Henning]

Nobody wants to hear this, but I don't think holding an airplane for "Better Days" is a profitable scheme. There are fewer private pilots every day, so there are fewer potential customers. That, expensive avgas, and the looming ADS-B deadline are gonna hold down aircraft prices.

On the other end of the equation, the airplane costs money just sitting there. The appreciation (if any) isn't gonna overcome the out of pocket expense of just owning the aircraft and keeping it hangared, insured, and in annual.

So if you want an airplane to fly, buy one (or keep one) and have fun.

Otherwise, liquidate, return the residual value to your bank account, and stop the outflow. You'll come out ahead.

Only if money is what you value most in life. I am happy to own my airplane and it costs me nothing to keep. If someone wants to be happy owning my airplane they'll have to pay a price that makes me happy, otherwise they can enjoy looking at those numbers in their bank account, or buy a less expensive plane that will cost them more over the next few years than the difference in paying my price.

 

[kyleb]

Only if money is what you value most in life. I am happy to own my airplane and it costs me nothing to keep. If someone wants to be happy owning my airplane they'll have to pay a price that makes me happy, otherwise they can enjoy looking at those numbers in their bank account, or buy a less expensive plane that will cost them more over the next few years than the difference in paying my price.

The context was along the lines of "If you're looking for the most financially beneficial way to exit your ownership position." If that is your goal, I think getting out sooner is better than later for most people.

Putting it in the terms of "if money is the only thing you value" or something like that isn't really the point. Airplane ownership has an opportuntity cost. With the money you could get out of it, plus stopping the airplane related outflows, you could buy something else (car, boat, cabin in the woods, luxury vacation, college education, earlier retirement, or whatever). As soon as one of those things has a higher priority than the airplane, it is just a change in life's priorities, not "Money is the end-all, be-all."

 

[flyingron]

There's a Stinson up in Idaho that's got some damage, but you can probably buff that right out .

Unless you're really interested in this particular model and effort, there are lots of them out there. The guy who had my hangar before mine had two he was attempting to build one from (The piece of fabric with the N number and two slings to hold the wings are still in my hangar, the Stinsons were sold prior to me moving in).

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

There's a Stinson up in Idaho that's got some damage, but you can probably buff that right out .

Unless you're really interested in this particular model and effort, there are lots of them out there. The guy who had my hangar before mine had two he was attempting to build one from (The piece of fabric with the N number and two slings to hold the wings are still in my hangar, the Stinsons were sold prior to me moving in).

I want a 10A or maybe HW75, preferably with CAP history. I like the idea of a light 2 place single that has some actual history to it. Doesn't have to be a specific airframe, just that model. I'll keep looking, probably my next chance at getting time off, other than the remainder of this week, is November/December time frame. Gives me some time to search.

 

[KRyan]

Are you looking at the 10A thats on Ebay right now? That's a project!

It has the 235 upgrade, and has been sitting in the desert, but no telling how long it lived in that condition, but that might help with the wood issues if it spent most of it's life in the desert.

BTW, I had a friend who bought a "project" airplane and had an A&P/IA friend who supervised his work. He used that time and his practical experience in restoring the aircraft to get his A&P license, so if you don't have your A&P and have someone who is willing to supervise your work, it might be worth putting a little more into an airplane than it might be worth if at the end of the project you have a nice plane and your A&P ticket.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Are you looking at the 10A thats on Ebay right now? That's a project!

It has the 235 upgrade, and has been sitting in the desert, but no telling how long it lived in that condition, but that might help with the wood issues if it spent most of it's life in the desert.

I've watched it, and from talking to various people who have either had a project 10A or been around them, I feel that one isn't the way to go. I may hold out until later in the year, spend a little more money than I really originally wanted to, and just buy one that is ready to fly today.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Additionally, I'd got some details on a plane about a month ago that was complete, I believe with out an engine. I'll have to go get a few more details on it and see what the deal is, I suppose just getting an engine and hanging it is a bit better than rebuilding the whole thing.

 

[Henning]

Additionally, I'd got some details on a plane about a month ago that was complete, I believe with out an engine. I'll have to go get a few more details on it and see what the deal is, I suppose just getting an engine and hanging it is a bit better than rebuilding the whole thing.

Hanging an engine takes 4 hours if you have all the parts, so yeah, more than a bit I'd say...