Im sure this question has been asked before, but I could not find anypost specifically addressing my questions. Has anyone purchased a Cessna 172, or like aircraft to complete training? Im seriously contemplating this to complete all certificates through CFI. Can anyone tell me if they have done this, and if so, is it realistically a feasible route to getting hours and ratings? Thanks for the help.
Buying a plane to complete training. Is it worth it?
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Apache123
Line Up and Wait
Accounting for all of the costs of ownership (maintenance of the unexpected kind, annual, insurance, gas, etc.), if you get a bird already ifr equipped and is within your budget, it is one of the better things to do in aviation in my opinion. you know who flew theplanelast, its mechanical state, and it will never be taken/reserved by anyone other than your mechanic.
That said, if your mission is for long XC trips or more then 1.5 passengers as soon as you have your pp-asel-ia then I would recommend something more than a 172 simply because we really are in a buyers market. It would be easier to finish your pp-asel in a rental then get what you want than to get a 172 then try to sell to trade up.
Just my thoughts.
That said, if your mission is for long XC trips or more then 1.5 passengers as soon as you have your pp-asel-ia then I would recommend something more than a 172 simply because we really are in a buyers market. It would be easier to finish your pp-asel in a rental then get what you want than to get a 172 then try to sell to trade up.
Just my thoughts.
olasek
Pattern Altitude
Doesn't make any sense to me. Training is what ... about 50-80 hrs ... makes no sense to make a purchase for so few hours and then sell it. Even taxes alone may constitute significant percentage of your training.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
I bought a cherokee 180 while working on my ASEL, it's taking me thru the instrument and the CFI. However, it's not appropriate for the Commercial, I need to rent a complex airplane for that.
That said, I really have no intentions of selling the cherokee. It's my personal airplane and will not use it for teaching. For starters, the insurance & maintenance costs would 4x what I'm paying now.
Taking another approach - as one of the faculty members at the local college with a very comprehensive aviation program pointed out, if 5 students got togther to buy a C172 or similar, it would cost each of them about $8K each, they could use it as personal airplane for ASEL, Instrument & CFI (again, the commercial requires a different airplane) then sell it for about what they paid for it. They'd probably break even vs. rental costs. On the other hand, they'd have to worry about insurance and maintenance.
That said, I really have no intentions of selling the cherokee. It's my personal airplane and will not use it for teaching. For starters, the insurance & maintenance costs would 4x what I'm paying now.
Taking another approach - as one of the faculty members at the local college with a very comprehensive aviation program pointed out, if 5 students got togther to buy a C172 or similar, it would cost each of them about $8K each, they could use it as personal airplane for ASEL, Instrument & CFI (again, the commercial requires a different airplane) then sell it for about what they paid for it. They'd probably break even vs. rental costs. On the other hand, they'd have to worry about insurance and maintenance.
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
Actually, you'll need one for your CFI too, but keep in mind that you can still do the Commercial/CFI maneuvers in your airplane, then get the required complex training in the retract-You can use two airplanes on your checkride for both. I used a 150 and a 177RG for my Commercial and a 172 and 172RG for my CFI.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Personally -- the last thing I'd want to do during a CFI checkride -- is bring two airplanes. You have twice the things to get drilled on and twice the chance the airworthiness guys will find an issue.
It's bad enough bringing one. Two .. no thanks.
Done well, this is the best way to do things. Done poorly it's the most expensive. It pretty much comes down to which plane you buy and who cares for it.
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
That's why you go to a school in Vegas's FSDO district and take your CFI initial with a DPE like I did :wink2:. You still have to fill out a request form with the FSDO, but 90% of the time they assign you a DE. Same In FL too; however, I can see not wanting to subject two aircraft to an FAA inspector's scrutiny in one day.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
The OP is working on his CFI. Do you know of somewhere that can train you all the way through to CFI in 50 to 80 hours? If so, let me know, because I have the same goal as the OP.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I also plan on training all the way through to CFI. I bought Miss Piggy almost a year ago and have since knocked out my PPL and currently working on the IR.
For me there are no rental planes in my area, so it was purchase or not train. Having my own plane lets me fly by myself on my schedule. It lets me schedule training such that I only have to schedule the instructor. I don't have to match the instructors schedule with rent plane availability.
In my case I've been a car guy all my life, so having and maintaining my own plane is a satisfying thing in itself.
Good luck with your decision.
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MBDiagMan
Final Approach
You make a great point, but I don't know how I will be able to do my commercial any different. A friend has a Beech Sierra that I think I will be able to work a deal for the complex part of my Commercial. Learning, bringing and certifying airworthy two airplanes will be a problem, so I'm hoping I can do the Commercial checkride in the Sierra alone.
alfadog
Final Approach
If you are doing this to save money, from my limited experience, it is very doubtful that buying an airplane just for training will save you money over renting. My guess is that it will be a lot more expensive.
However, if you are looking to buy an airplane for the long term and get your training in that then sure. The important thing is to evaluate your needs and desires for after you complete training and buy that airplane, assuming single-engine land. It is really not that much more difficult to fly a complex, not much more difficult than stick shift vs. automatic for learning to drive, IMHO.
Big caveat, however. As you learn to fly and become familiar with what is out there, what you consider your ideal airplane for the next 3 - 5 years may change. That right there is a good reason to rent at least through PPL and perhaps beyond.
poadeleted20
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Yes, it's feasible, but it may not make much sense.
First, you can't get your CP and CFI training completed in that 172 -- you need at least 10 hours in complex airplanes, and a 172 isn't "complex." Also, you need spin training for CFI, and while a 172 may be spun legally, other "like aircraft" (such as the Piper Warrior) cannot. You could rent appropriate planes to fill in the gaps for those requirements, but that cuts into the savings.
Second, an airplane like that is a sizeable investment -- on the order of $50K. That's a lot of money tied up in the plane, and at the end of training, you've got the airplane which may or may not be easy to sell if you don't want to keep it as a personal transport or the core of your own little flight school.
Finally, you have to be flying 75-100 hours a year or more before the cost per hour of a plane you own beats that of a rental. If you're going to be pursuing your training at a rapid pace, that might make sense, but if you're doing it on weekends and evenings here and there, it might not.
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poadeleted20
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You need a complex airplane for the initial CFI-Airplane practical test, too.
poadeleted20
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It's the scrutiny of the applicant, not the airplane, which I see as the concern -- you have to know everything about both, and there's no rule which says the examiner can't test you on any task in the complex plane while you're up there (other than any gentleman's agreement you reach with the examiner beforehand).
Greg Bockelman
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Greg Bockelman
Yeah Yeah Yeah. Everyone says that, but having done just that, it wasn't that bad. I have not heard any first hand horror stories about doing it.
poadeleted20
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That would be my recommendation -- do all the training and the practical test in the complex plane. And that goes for both Commercial and CFI.
poadeleted20
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Horror stories, no, but surprises? Yes, including the examiner springing a few tasks in the complex plane other than going once around the pattern. There are also the logistics of getting two planes to the test site. So I'd say, yes, it can be done, but I don't recommend it.
Greg Bockelman
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That is the crux of the whole thing. The answer lies in the goals of the OP. Gotta be willing to fly the hours before it makes sense to own.
Having said that, if training is to be on a fairly short time line, owning MIGHT make sense if the proper research is done. But one has to factor in the vagaries of the airplane market. It might be "hot" when buying and not so "hot" when selling.
wabower
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Wayne
The answer depends on whether you're making a financial decision (because the money is most important aspect) vs a life-style decision in which convenience, accessibility and flexibility are most important.
If the question hinges on the financial aspects, you need to critically assess the risks of ownership as well as the costs of operation while obtaining your ratings.
The primary problems with owning are that you are:
1. Committing a significant amount of up-front money to a illiquid capital transaction with no guaranteed return, as well as on-going fixed and variable expenses that are difficult to budget. It's fairly easy to convert cash to airplane ownership, but much more difficult to convert airplane ownership back to cash.
If you pay $35,000 for a 172, what can you expect to realize upon sale in a couple of years? Say 80% of purchase price or $28,000? If so, add the anticipated loss on investment to the cost of ownership column when making the comparison.
2. An accurate apples-to-apples comparison woulld include the necessity to sell the plane the day after you get your license, in order to limit the time that your capital was invested to the time you were using someone else' airplane for training. Determining the probable future resale value of GA trainers in the current and projected market is difficult at best.
3. Aircraft owners are faced with a their projected costs. You can develop a reasonably accurate budget for the more-common costs of operation, as well as the usual costs of ownership. Some potentially big (and really big) expenses that you can't budget include fuel cost/gal, maintenance (especially unexpected, non-scheduled maintenance or repair and resulting down-time) and the residual value of the airplane when you want to sell it.
Many posts on pilot forums contain a disclosure that "I started flying some time ago but life got in the way" and flying was a casualty until things were better. If there's a chance that you could be so affected, buying probably isn't the best choice.
OTOH, if you have $50k sitting in an account that will never be needed for anything else, you might find that using some of it to buy and operate an airplane is a viable choice.
If the question hinges on the financial aspects, you need to critically assess the risks of ownership as well as the costs of operation while obtaining your ratings.
The primary problems with owning are that you are:
1. Committing a significant amount of up-front money to a illiquid capital transaction with no guaranteed return, as well as on-going fixed and variable expenses that are difficult to budget. It's fairly easy to convert cash to airplane ownership, but much more difficult to convert airplane ownership back to cash.
If you pay $35,000 for a 172, what can you expect to realize upon sale in a couple of years? Say 80% of purchase price or $28,000? If so, add the anticipated loss on investment to the cost of ownership column when making the comparison.
2. An accurate apples-to-apples comparison woulld include the necessity to sell the plane the day after you get your license, in order to limit the time that your capital was invested to the time you were using someone else' airplane for training. Determining the probable future resale value of GA trainers in the current and projected market is difficult at best.
3. Aircraft owners are faced with a their projected costs. You can develop a reasonably accurate budget for the more-common costs of operation, as well as the usual costs of ownership. Some potentially big (and really big) expenses that you can't budget include fuel cost/gal, maintenance (especially unexpected, non-scheduled maintenance or repair and resulting down-time) and the residual value of the airplane when you want to sell it.
Many posts on pilot forums contain a disclosure that "I started flying some time ago but life got in the way" and flying was a casualty until things were better. If there's a chance that you could be so affected, buying probably isn't the best choice.
OTOH, if you have $50k sitting in an account that will never be needed for anything else, you might find that using some of it to buy and operate an airplane is a viable choice.
poadeleted20
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"It's a choice, not an airplane."
Skylane81E
Final Approach
No, buy a plane because you want one, not because you "need" it to finish training. Several folks have done that here, they pay a lot more in the end than just renting. They also tie themselves to one airplane so any maintenance snafus and they are grounded.
I'd say get the ticket then see what kind of plane you need/want
I'd say get the ticket then see what kind of plane you need/want
Everskyward
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I knew I had done it too but I forgot the details so I looked it up. I did my commercial in a Warrior and a C-182RG, and my CFI in a C-152 and a Mooney. It looks like I only flew the Mooney and the C-182RG a couple times before the respective checkrides. I had a lot of previous Cessna time but no previous Mooney time. I vaguely remember it being a little bit of a PITA to change airplanes. Luckily both these checkrides were conducted at the FBO where I rented the airplanes so I didn't need to relocate them anywhere.
poadeleted20
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I did my reinstatement ride in 1977 (expired while I was floating around out in the Pacific) that way -- C-150 and C-210.
Me, too.
Me, too, and I think that's a major factor in the practicality of such a choice. I did my 1990 reinstatement (expired while I was in Europe) all in a C-172RG, and it was a lot simpler.
Not that big of an issue really. You do your first CP and CFI ride Multi and you have the retract issue out of the way and all the rest can be done in the 172, then he has a 172 he can rent as well. There is also doing the initial CFI SES will work as well.
poadeleted20
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He's trying to save money, not spend more. You know what's involved in doing your initial CP in a twin? A minimum of 20 hours of multi time, probably all with an instructor aboard and that's a lot of money. Ditto the initial CFI-AME. It would be a lot cheaper to just do the CP and CFI-ASE in a rented complex single.
zaitcev
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Pete Zaitcev
I don't see how this can be a problem. My avia alma mater, Del Sol Aviation, definitely can take anyone from Student Pilot to CFI-I. Now, about 80 hours, that's a good question. I passed Private checkride at 70. However, I observe students who do compressed courses. They come in and start flying almost every day, hogging the leaseback 172, and then one day you can see them switching to Arrow and taking it for 3-hour flights. It is very apparent from looking at the weekly flight schedule. Then one day they disappear without a trace, and you know that another time building CFI was released upon the aviation world
These students definitely use way less calendar time than I did, and probably fewer Hobbs hours, too.Edit: To the Ron's point above, Del Sol also offers multi in a Cougar, with MEI instructors on staff. But I see almost no takers, which is kinda a pity. Keeping that bird is probably expensive, and every time I rent, I subsidize the FBO's flagship.
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True, if you aren't going to do the multi ratings, just rent the complex single for doing the check rides. Probably cheapest is to get good at flying his 172, get all the training and non retract requirements in and then go to American Fliers where they have 172 RGs and do the finish up courses and ride.
poadeleted20
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Typically about 300 hours zero to CFI-ASE-IA.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I also would not recommend purchasing an airplane just for training. You could wind up with mechanical problems that ground both your investment and your training, and that chew up lots of training dollars to fix. Purchasing an aircraft is always a risk. The amount of money one is likely to save over a rental situation is paltry compared to both the funds being expended and the risk involved.
Some of the 141s are doing it well under that, never did figure out how.
poadeleted20
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In theory, they can do it in 230 hours (35 PP, 35 IR, 120 CP, 25 CFI-A, 15 CFI-I), but it really doesn't happen much, and then only if the school has designation authority. The biggest hurdle is PP in only 35 hours, plus without designation authority, there's another 10 hours or so for the five practical tests. I'm thinking 250-260 being a reasonable figure if you're doing it full time in a 141 program ab initio. However, that didn't sound like the OP's situation. In any event, 300 is really more typical for that progression, even if done under 141.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I don't see how this can be a problem. My avia alma mater, Del Sol Aviation, definitely can take anyone from Student Pilot to CFI-I. Now, about 80 hours, that's a good question. I passed Private checkride at 70. However, I observe students who do compressed courses. They come in and start flying almost every day, hogging the leaseback 172, and then one day you can see them switching to Arrow and taking it for 3-hour flights. It is very apparent from looking at the weekly flight schedule. Then one day they disappear without a trace, and you know that another time building CFI was released upon the aviation world
Edit: To the Ron's point above, Del Sol also offers multi in a Cougar, with MEI instructors on staff. But I see almost no takers, which is kinda a pity. Keeping that bird is probably expensive, and every time I rent, I subsidize the FBO's flagship.
I'm so confused!
I thought that there was a 250 hour total time requirement for the commercial.
alfadog
Final Approach
I'm so confused!
Not for Part 141 schools.
edit: 190 minimum under 141.
poadeleted20
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There is, under Part 61, but under Part 141, it is possible to earn your Commercial with only 190 hours. This is rarely achieved, but it is theoretically possible. 80 hours? Not possible.I'm so confused!
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
Commercial shouldn't be a problem-You'll be going with a DE, so the airplanes won't go to the FSDO's Airworthiness guys. You will be the one who will certify them as airworthy with a thourough pre-flight and the log books in hand just like you did for your private.
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
Heh..I'm actually working on getting a job there. I'll be co-teaching the PPL ground school starting at the end of the month as a means to get my foot in the door.I don't see how this can be a problem. My avia alma mater, Del Sol Aviation, definitely can take anyone from Student Pilot to CFI-I. Now, about 80 hours, that's a good question. I passed Private checkride at 70. However, I observe students who do compressed courses. They come in and start flying almost every day, hogging the leaseback 172, and then one day you can see them switching to Arrow and taking it for 3-hour flights. It is very apparent from looking at the weekly flight schedule. Then one day they disappear without a trace, and you know that another time building CFI was released upon the aviation world
Edit: To the Ron's point above, Del Sol also offers multi in a Cougar, with MEI instructors on staff. But I see almost no takers, which is kinda a pity. Keeping that bird is probably expensive, and every time I rent, I subsidize the FBO's flagship.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
I know two POAers who bought a plane to do their pilot training. One already posted in this thread, the other is my friend locally. He has not yet posted. He said he did it, with leaseback, thinking it would be cheaper. And, in the end, I forget the answer for sure, but I THINK he said no it was not worth it.
It's never worth buying a plane you can rent anywhere cheap. The people who succeed in small business aviation make it serving niche markets. I have one that needs an amphib. In the end of it though, you have to have a value added couple of reasons to make ownership worth it.
Rare is the circumstance I have seen where a person had to do a lease back to justify the purchase of an airplane didn't regret it, I will give you that.
If you need to fly 300hrs a year at minimum cost with maximum technical advantage like you should do, this is the cheapest. best, most fun way you will have to do this.
You are lucky, from occupation and demonstration in not only taste but quality of his car, your boyfriend can do an impeccable job maintaining a 6 GPH 160 kt Midget Mustang II for you and he to fly around in for low $$ in ($25k for a decent copy, put in your own low cost experimental SVT avionics package; he will have no problem installing it and flying an ILS/LPV to minimums within an hour of install. Entire packages including multiple displays and engine/ fuel monitoring coupled with WAAS GPS slave/coupled GPSS AP & panel packages with NAV/COM for under $15000. Stuff he will be able to maintain in top quality order for not much money since it's experimental. You can do all the flying and traveling that you need and want to do on a budget you will be able to afford, and I'm talking <$50 hr total costs. He's a good boyfriend for you to have.
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MBDiagMan
Final Approach
When I bought my plane my choices were minimal.
There were no rental planes for training within a hundred miles so:
1. I could drive a hundred miles for one lesson
2. Take a number of weeks vacation (which I did not have available,) go to a fly your butt off school and hope for good weather.
3. Buy a plane and find an instructor
The only practical choice for me was to buy a plane. I'm REALLY glad that I did and I've never looked back.
The funny thing is that I had trouble finding an instructor that would fly out of my field. Two of the three did not have their medical for awhile and now another instructor is available as well, so there are four available out of my field, but STILL no rental planes.
There were no rental planes for training within a hundred miles so:
1. I could drive a hundred miles for one lesson
2. Take a number of weeks vacation (which I did not have available,) go to a fly your butt off school and hope for good weather.
3. Buy a plane and find an instructor
The only practical choice for me was to buy a plane. I'm REALLY glad that I did and I've never looked back.
The funny thing is that I had trouble finding an instructor that would fly out of my field. Two of the three did not have their medical for awhile and now another instructor is available as well, so there are four available out of my field, but STILL no rental planes.