Burning Colorado

For those interested...the red is obviously the burning area. The yellow areas are the evacuation areas. It looks like the Academy is quite far away from the city, but that's not true - it's pretty much non-stop urban along the entire route. The right yellow line is I-25. Pikes Peak is the white blob in the lower left area.

Timestamp is June 27 (wed) at 1:30 am. If anyone wants the KML file, let me know. I'm getting one every 6-8 hours.
 

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I hope everyone stays safe in my former home state. Please take care of yourselves, and remember things are replacable.

This is really a bad scene. :(
 
Given the weather,fuel,and terrain, things look grim. My father and I were discussing this yesterday. He is in his early 80s, but was a Fuels management specialist in the USFS, and on a regional major incident overhead team as the staff fire behavior officer. He knows the area, and says without a major break in the weather, getting a handle on the situation is nearly impossible. Those who have never been in the West really have no concept of the area and terrain involved.

Agreed from everything I've heard. Most work is behind the fires and flanking them when winds allow to keep them from moving laterally or backwards, but one good wind change happens and all that work is gone.

It's all point protection of structures and trying to "steer" the fire when winds aren't pushing them. When the wind howls, the crews have to evac.

Hearing thunder this afternoon. Dry lightning is a huge concern. More fires would be bad. Everything is a tinderbox.

Looking over the various update websites, it looks like even Type I teams are scrambling. They get moved from fire to fire as conditions and priorities change.

The Type I team handling Colorado Springs was working other fires that were brought under enough control to release them to local teams, and the Type I packs up and hauls butt to the next one. God bless 'em, that's a lot of work. I doubt anyone is getting much sleep.

The C-130s got going in earnest yesterday. That'll help.

And there were photos of tanker "orbits" over the Colorado Springs fire. One aircraft drops, clears, next aircraft rolls in, everyone in a race to get back, reload, and do it again.
 
My folks called a couple hours ago, about 1pm Colorado time. They are on the road, Woodland Park has been evacuated. They are headed either to Dillon or Breckenridge.
 
They called from Breckenridge. They'll be a few $$$ lighter, but plan to head back on Sat and see what's left.
 
We flew back into Denver from the northwest this afternoon dodging quite a few rain showers which is a good sign. We couldn't see the fire west of Fort Collins because we were in the clouds but it was raining on the fire near Boulder. Unfortunately we could still see smoke from the Waldo Canyon fire west of Colorado Springs but it wasn't the huge plume like yesterday.
 
Man, I hate fires. M prayers go out to you all.

---

Tommy is scheduled to go to a camp which is 43 miles south of Colorado, next week. Is that gonna happen?
 
Oops. Tommy goes to camp next week, 43 miles south of GUNNISON - is that area affected?
 
that'd prolly be down toward creede
 
Sorry, it is at Powderhorn. That help?
 
I'd say "every area is affected" right now until I had a chance to go look and see if that area had any precip this year.

The beetle kill trees are dead and standing dry, the live trees are dry, undergrowth is dry, everything is waiting for a spark.

Here's the best overall current info site I know of: http://www.inciweb.org/

Our fire season started here with a prescribed burn by the State that went unmonitored after a few days and it reignited and took off running. Folks have been wary ever since, and outdoor fire bans are virtually everywhere.

Fires are normal here in summer. It's their ability to take off running in dry timber and their proximity to homes and cities that gets the headlines this year.

320+ houses confirmed destroyed in Waldo Canyon Fire alone. Waldo Canyon is right on the outskirts of Colorado Springs and once it jumped a ridgeline, it walked right down into the outskirts of town. An afternoon gusty thunderstorm coming off the mountains blew 65 MPH winds for a brief period, and it jumped.

The big fire up north jumped the Poudre River in similar circumstances.

There are more of them than usual because of conditions and they're going to burn a long time until precip happens.

Lightning and humans can start new ones pretty much anytime, anywhere.

I wouldn't be too overly concerned unless there's one burning nearby and someone has respiratory issues. Smoke can cause problems with folks.

Any camp will get a lot of attention in an evac order. Busses, etc. CAP had over 200 kids at a Type-A Encampment at the USAF Academy when the evac order came. Kids were loaded onto busses and moved to Petersen AFB where they were released to family or sheltered there until arrangements had been made for picking then up. No drama. Just move folks away. No camp would get ignored, that's for sure.

Priorities are humans and structures and only then, fire lines. Those can be jumped and overrun if the wind comes up. Then they start over again making one on the next ridgeline with a road for evacuating crews. It's hot awful work.

All it'll take to mellow all of it is some of that wet stuff that comes with clouds like this, that actually reaches the surface...

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Thanks, all. The outfit operating the place is pretty professional about safety and the like, so I doubt they'll head up there if it's questionable.
 

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My folks are planning to head back to WP tomorrow, if possible, and see if their house is still OK.
 
I hear the Great Leader who let the heavy air tanker fleet continue to dwindle on his watch to 8, toured the burnt down houses today.

Yeah, I said it... because the media won't.

Not even SZ material, 'cause it doesn't matter which Great Leader did it.
 
I don't think you know as much about the heavy tanker industry as you think you know.

Which great leader let the tanker industry "dwindle?"
 
The folks got back to their house today ... no harm done. The fire line is about 1.5 miles away, and a couple of fire breaks have been made between them and the fire. The opposite side of the road next to them was the mandatory evacuation boundary - they were on the non-mandatory side, but left anyway. They spent the last couple days in Breckenridge. While there, they smelled a lot of smoke and their car was covered in ash this morning. The front desk told them that was from another fire to the west - Pine Ridge, I think. They said Woodland Park is pretty much a ghost town right now.
 
I don't think you know as much about the heavy tanker industry as you think you know.

Which great leader let the tanker industry "dwindle?"

Look, when you pay your taxes, you expect the fire department to show up with enough gear. That's all I'm saying.

Every government politician will have an excuse as to why only 8 tankers were airworthy, MAFFS wasn't deployed weeks sooner, and it won't matter a damn to the people who lost houses.

The Press is too chicken to ask. They're busy going to Government funded Press parties.

The front line folks such as yourself work hard. The back office folks, fumbled this one. And responsibility for the back office goes all the way to the top, in leadership school anyway.

We were busy paying for Soylindra and Abound Solar (both failed) and not minding the higher priorities. Because their priorities, admittedly set by their idiot constituents, are ****ed up.
 
By the way, Doug's correct. I know nothing about the tanker biz.

But I know who's here fighting the damn fires...

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I'm glad your family is safe Matthew. Did they say if any homes in Woodland Park were burned? I finally got an email from my friend (who is actually the Mayor of WP) but is brief and had no details, as you can imagine. I am sure he is extremely busy and I am not going to bother him.
 
It sounds like the fire didn't reach WP. But it wasn't far away. Even now, it's just a mile and a half from where my folks live, and I still think the area across the road from them has been evacuated. They said most of the wind has been from the west, helping keep the fire away - but unfortunately that wind has been pushing it into the Springs.

The Mayor, huh? I wonder if my folks know him, they seem to know a lot of people there.
 
Look, when you pay your taxes, you expect the fire department to show up with enough gear. That's all I'm saying.

Every government politician will have an excuse as to why only 8 tankers were airworthy, MAFFS wasn't deployed weeks sooner, and it won't matter a damn to the people who lost houses.

The Press is too chicken to ask. They're busy going to Government funded Press parties.

The front line folks such as yourself work hard. The back office folks, fumbled this one. And responsibility for the back office goes all the way to the top, in leadership school anyway.

We were busy paying for Soylindra and Abound Solar (both failed) and not minding the higher priorities. Because their priorities, admittedly set by their idiot constituents, are ****ed up.

The press asked. The President, et al, had nothing to do with it. If you really want someone to blame, look to Tony Kern, who did as much damage as he could before moving on to be a highly paid motivational speaker. I think he still had a chip on his shoulder after he was curtly dismissed by the tanker industry for naiveté and shortsightedness.

We're short two air tankers presently because one crew died fighting a fire and the other had a gear up. We die with some regularity, thanks, and the dwindling numbers are marked with a trail of headstones. It's not an easy job nor an easy industry.

I've been running hard on fires the past few days, and expect to do the same tomorrow.

There are more than 8 tankers in the country.

Presently the next generations of tankers are being tested and flown, and Neptune has a BAE-146 out on fires right now. Tanker 10 has been dropping. Evergreen bet the farm on the 747 project and nobody would pay for it. Everyone wants the private individual to bankrupt themselves for the public good, as though we're all volunteer firefighters, then the public screams and yells when there's nothing left. Nobody was defending us in 2003 when the tanker industry was dismantled. Nobody comes to the funerals or worries about the lack of support when one of us is killed over the fire, as regularly happens.

Your tax dollars didn't put the P2V's, the P2's, the C130s, the PB4Y's, the AT802's, the DC4's, DC6's, and DC7's, and other platforms in the air over fires. Private companies did that, and not with government pilots, but individuals who put their lives on hold for your fire season, then found themselves year after year out of work at the end. The aircraft are available, and for many years, decades, even, worked a shoestring budget with very little support at the cheapest of wages and contract support to give people what they wanted.

You might be thinking that nobody ordered up a tanker. If so, you'd be thinking wrong. The tankers are stretched to the breaking point. There's no more. MAFFS are available, but are very limited in their capabilities and their availability. They're not firefighters; they're military pilots performing a task they've been assigned. They don't have the decades of fire experience that makes a tanker pilot. They don't have the flexibility with their equipment that allows them to split loads and vary coverage levels and do the other things that are needed for tactical firefighting. They deliver enmasse, and when all hell's broken lose, then it's enough.

The folks at Tanker 10 built a DC10 into a tanker, but crewed it with DC10 pilots, not firefighters, and they very nearly paid dearly. After that, nobody would hire them. They're extremely expensive, and their last hope was California, which also elected not to use them. They've struggled like everyone else, but the bill is high.

Tankers aren't there to put out the fire. If you think so, you don't understand the capabilities and the use. Tankers are there to support fire operations on the ground. There's no other way. Tankers are there to modify fire behavior on a small scale to assist an incident commander in working the fire, every bit as much as each person carrying a pulaski or driving a dozer. Tankers are another tool in the toolbox, from the 800 gallon Type III AT802 to the DC10, and everything in between.

This isn't a matter of a president getting face time during a disaster, and blaming the man, his administration, or other politicians for not having enough tankers. No tanker company has extra aircraft, and none are forthcoming. The government doesn't provide them. The military has other priorities, and aren't firefighting professionals.

But I know who's here fighting the damn fires...

I am.

There are a couple of Canadian tankers; the firefighting is being done by thousands of yellow-shirted Hotshots and Flamingos and Smoke Jumpers and Engine Crews, and Helittack Crews. Tankers are simply there to support them. Single Engine Air Tankers, Large Air Tankers, and the Super Tankers are all out there working. Did the government cause high-profile operations such as Aero Union to "dwindle?" They did not.

On the fire line, we haven't dwindled. Some of us are part of the year, some of us are full time year-round, but we're still here, still fighting fire, just like every fire season.
 
You seem to have missed that I said you guys on the front lines are doing good work, and took offense at something Doug.

Then you went off on about ten different tangents I won't bother replying to right now.

My point is, the politi-weenies turned our burning State into a campaign stop, while they had done nothing to pay for, support, or grow your industry... in fact, on their watch, the industry is a couple of accidents more away from not having enough resources to put out a dumpster fire, and for that I will eternally hate them.

But then again, I already did hate them. No news there.

I'm sick of people cheerleading for these asshats. Rampant Partisanism has removed all measurement of real results. As long as the rock-star politicians show up, they make all their childish supporters (on both sides) all giddy and weak-kneed. "There's my hero who claims my ideals while he sends money to his cronies. But that's okay. He's 'trying'. Poor dear."

WTF? Political signs in your front lawn? Go Team, take State! ROFL. Stupidity.

You'd think we are mostly teenage girls at a Beatles concert, the way the masses fawn over these worthless liars.

If you recall, this particular liar chose Denver as his first big rally. We're good enough for his rah-rag Convention but not good enough for him to make sure his experts who know this State had every resource at his command? He can go to a special place in hell.
 
I'm not really sure what you want. You're emotional over the fire, I get that. You're upset about the number of air tankers, apparently. You've made some kind of imaginary connection between the loss of homes in your state, perhaps, with the number of tankers, and somehow tried to tie that in with the presence of the President of the United States. Very non-sequitur, but as you wish.

Politicians tour fires all the time. It's as regular as clockwork. It's not a big deal. The fire isn't going to change as a result, nor is the effort being made on the fire. Do you think that perhaps the fire isn't getting the support or personnel it needs? It's a Type I fire, with a Type 1 management team, period, the same as any other Type 1 fire (or series of fires, actually). It's got the resources allocated that are available. Resources don't simply appear from thin air. It's got federal severity funding; a deep well of funding that assures the fire has what it needs. It's expensive, and incredibly complex.

What more do you want? What else is the President or anyone else supposed to do? Would you rather that he put on a yellow shirt, grabbed a pulaski, and set to work scratching line around a house somewhere? Short of that, there's not much else he or anyone else can do. In fact, he can't do that, because he's not qualified. He'd need a red card.

We see this happen every year, all over the country. I've been there and done that, and people like yourself locally are always emotional, as one might expect at a fire site. I was one of the only air assets in Florida during the "fire storms" there, when it was in it's early stages and hot and heavy. I stayed for all of it. I was there in California for each of the big blow-ups, and in Montana, and Idaho, and...it's the same each time. Soon the cries of law suits will emerge...you didn't do enough to protect us. Where were you? Why didn't someone help us?

Sorry folks. Some of us will die protecting you. Enormous amounts of money will be spent protecting you. Every available resource will be thrown at you. The forests were managed for decades in preparation for the event (you've no idea what it would be doing if that weren't the case). A lot has gone on behind the scenes, and is going on behind the scenes, to prevent this from getting worse, and to make things work. You won't be happy. You'll threaten to sue us later. You'll threaten to sue the government, the firefighters, the organizations, and anyone else you can think of. You, the people, will be distraught, and it's natural and normal and happens every time. We even understand, because we see it every time. I've been doing this a long time, and it's never changed, and it won't.

It's still annoying, though.
 
Doug,

I thank you for your help.

I've never been a woodland firefighter, and never will be, but I've seen them up close and personal several times over the years, and met a few. It is as backbreaking a job as there is. The air tanker crews are no exception.

Dropping retardant or water is, like you said, a way to modify the behavior of the fire - the only way it goes out is a shift in the wind or rain or snow, along with someone on the ground sifting through ashes with bare hands feeling for hot embers.

A million decisions get made through the years - and the result is that we have the tankers we have, and good crews, and many lessons that have been learned the hard way.
 
So you're saying every Type I team is getting every resource they requested Doug, and if we were magically back at a decade ago when 44 tankers were flying, they wouldn't have ordered up more?

Don't try to say I'm "emotional". I'm doing simple math here. Emotions drive everything humans do. But the insinuation is always that the person isn't thinking anymore because of their emotions, and that's Bravo Sierra.

I could throw the same dumb argument back in your face and say that you're "emotional" that the public/private experiment in tanker procurement and paying for them has utterly failed.

Or was 44 tankers too many?

Your comment that Government didn't provide those tankers is bogus. They are ex-military aircraft. The private sector didn't pay list new price for them, and that's where the system is falling apart right now.

Government contracts don't pay enough to purchase new. Even you keep saying you "hope" the folks converting the Smurf Jet succeed. I'm saying, quit hoping and fix the problem to the Politicians (not you).

How many airworthy tankers does it take to fight a big season in the U.S., that's the question.

And... I well know that politicians visiting fires is normal. That doesn't mean they didn't screw up. I carefully said this Administration allowed the numbers to continue to dwindle. I didn't blame it all on this Administration.

But they're in charge now, and failure or success is today, not blaming the problems on the past, if you're a true leader. 3 years of "it was the other guy's fault" doesn't cut it with me, when you only have a four year term.

People died on the other side of the fire too Doug, and I'm willing to ask... "Were there enough resources?"

You are off off other questions. Answer the first one.

Yes or no. Enough tankers in the air this year or not?

If yes, I disagree.

If no, who's ultimate responsibility was it?

I say it was the guy standing in front of the cameras, because that's the way he wants it. Step up, or step off.

Simple stuff here.
 
If no, who's ultimate responsibility was it?

I say it was the guy standing in front of the cameras, because that's the way he wants it. Step up, or step off.

Simple stuff here.

My family was involved in the logging industry for decades. Most all of their work was in the National Forests taking ONLY trees that were dead, diseased, or dying (no clear cutting ops). This kept the forest cleared out, provided natural fire breaks, employed A LOT of people, AND was a large revenue center for the government. Almost 100% of that has been stopped by the environmental lobby. The "natural" deadfalls, pine needles, dry brush, and dead stands provide a great environment for a forest rodent at the cost of a lot of these off the scale fires.

My point is that NO amount of fire fighting equipment is going to solve the problem of leaving 1000's of acres of timberland in the same exact condition you would want when starting the fireplace.

Urbanites making timberland management decisions is the root of the problem IMO. Until we change that and proactively manage our forests, then these tragedies will continue to repeat themselves year after year.
 
A MAFFS tanker crashed today, not long ago.

Condolences to all.

Just how much more blood do you want to ring out of a stone?
 
A MAFFS tanker crashed today, not long ago.

Condolences to all.

Just how much more blood do you want to ring out of a stone?

Aww sonofabitch. So sorry to hear. :( :( :(

No official info on if the crash was fire-related yet at any public source.

http://www.northcom.mil/News/2012/070112b.html

http://www.kktv.com/news/headlines/...hed_in_South_Dakota_161039895.html?mobile=yes

http://wildfiretoday.com/2012/07/01/c-130-maffs-air-tanker-crashes-in-south-dakota/

http://www.nycaviation.com/2012/07/air-force-c-130-hercules-firefighting-plane-crashes-south-dakota/

No news on if it was a Wyoming, Colorado, or Carolinas crew yet either.

This makes the point for more qualified crews and tankers louder than any other comment I could make. Sigh. You guys needed more birds and people.

Wish those in charge all the way up the chain from bottom to top would have realized that this was a brewing problem, about 10 years ago -- or if they did, they'd been a lot louder with complaints in the interim.

If you'd had them, MAFFS could have continued to be held in reserve. I worry that the "blood from the turnip" is folks trying to make the system profitable. Worries me.

Agree with the other poster's comment about the lack of forest management. Certainly another reason why tanker numbers should have been going up and not down... if you're going to leave beetle-kill standing, which is about all you can really do with beetle kill, you HAVE to be prepared to defend the housing.

And maybe fine the crap out of anyone who doesn't build defensible space around their structures... Send the money to the pool to buy tankers and pilots. :(

Eventually insurance companies will do what government cannot apparently do... Insurance costs will skyrocket for homes in the beetle-kill woods. Or they'll just be completely uninsurable.

Then government will end up doing what they did with flood insurance and nationalize it to make it even work at all...

Sucks. Prayers for the families.

Wishing you peace, Doug. Fly safe.
 
preliminary report from a friend inside - 6 crew - 3 rescued and hospitalized, 3 dead.

Sad day and heavy heart for family and friends of the crew. :(
 
It appears it was an Air National Guard fire fighting C-130, with 4 fataities.
 
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