"bumps in the road" learning emergency procedures

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classicrock

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Early Last week my instructor presented me with a written list of emergency procedures a student private pilot is required to know. On Friday(8/14), we flew to a practice area, and for the first time, practiced two of the procedures. One such procedure was for engine fire and the other was when the engine quit. The first procedure I wasn’t able to initially perform well and parts of the second were the same. The steps for the second:
Aviate 70knots
Navigate
Investigate cockpit checks
Communicate 121.5 7700expr
Aviate
USE the checklist

The above is the level of detail provided for engine out. No more

On Wednesday of this week (yesterday), we went to the simulator instead. And in the simulator I learned that I had completely misunderstood the instructors for engine fire. Upon clarification, I made much progress and eventually did it successfully. Performing the engine out procedure, I followed the steps as indicated above yet the instructor said I was leaving details out……which weren’t listed in the procedure. The instructor hadn’t provided more detail previously and said that I should "know" them. It was in the step for Investigate cockpit checks. And that I did the Communicate before Investigate .he also said that I should have attempted to restart the engine


Understand that I am new to these procedures, having only been introduced to the written instructions for them last week; and only practiced them for the first time on Friday.

So my question: assuming most of you have been introduced/trained with this procedure, is this the level of detail above what you were provided(for engine out)….and would you have “automatically” known attempt engine restart when you first learned it. And is communicating while or before investigate cockpit checks a BIG error


comments please
 
classicrock said:
Early Last week my instructor presented me with a written list of emergency procedures a student private pilot is required to know. On Friday(8/14), we flew to a practice area, and for the first time, practiced two of the procedures. One such procedure was for engine fire and the other was when the engine quit. The first procedure I wasn’t able to initially perform well and parts of the second were the same. The steps for the second:
Aviate 70knots
Navigate
Investigate cockpit checks
Communicate 121.5 7700expr
Aviate
USE the checklist

The above is the level of detail provided for engine out. No more

On Wednesday of this week (yesterday), we went to the simulator instead. And in the simulator I learned that I had completely misunderstood the instructors for engine fire. Upon clarification, I made much progress and eventually did it successfully. Performing the engine out procedure, I followed the steps as indicated above yet the instructor said I was leaving details out……which weren’t listed in the procedure. The instructor hadn’t provided more detail previously and said that I should "know" them. It was in the step for Investigate cockpit checks. And that I did the Communicate before Investigate .he also said that I should have attempted to restart the engine


Understand that I am new to these procedures, having only been introduced to the written instructions for them last week; and only practiced them for the first time on Friday.

So my question: assuming most of you have been introduced/trained with this procedure, is this the level of detail above what you were provided(for engine out)….and would you have “automatically” known attempt engine restart when you first learned it. And is communicating while or before investigate cockpit checks a BIG error


comments please
Click to expand...

Given only what you've described here, clearly the instructor is making assumptions of what you know. Did he/she assign any reading beforehand? Have you completed a ground school? I'm just probing for where the info should have come from in case there were other sources.

In my case, as a new trainee I would have probably done everything right except pulled carb heat. But I've been operating and working on engines since I was ~6. So I understood a great deal about the systems from prior knowledge.

John
 
Your instructor is an ass. You are not expected to clairvoyantly know steps that are not part of the procedure. That's why you have emergency checklists.

Unless this was a engine fire that occurred during engine start, I can't believe attempting an engine start is on any manufacturer's (or sane person's) checklist. The key thing is to do what you can to stop additional fuel from reaching the fire. That is move the mixture to idle cutoff and turn off the fuel valve. Secondary steps involve keeping the fire/smoke out of the cockpit so you can avigate. That usually means shutting off the cabin heat and possibly any vents that may be admitting smoke (though if smoke is present, you may open vents to attempt to clear the air).

One thing you should know, there's little chance you're going to put out an engine fire in a light single. You have only one job after the steps above... GET ON THE GROUND. Make a rapid descent to the nearest practicable landing spot. I've seen the results of a few engine fires. I have one friend who got his Navion on the ground just in time to get out of it.
 
Read the POH.

I seriously doubt your instructor intended for you to use only the information he gave you directly.

No clairvoyance necessary. All the information in the POH is relevant to being a competent pilot.
 
I have serious questions about your instructors approach to teaching. when introducing a new subject, the cockpit is not the place to work through it. the pre-flight briefing is that place. a detailed discussion of what should or should not be done and the order of them should be briefed. that discussion should include common causes of engine failure and the steps to solve the issue. IE carb heat, fuel tanks, fuel pumps.

the AFM should have been gone through in detail and the flows to accomplish those items should have been discussed and demonstrated in the cockpit before pre-flight.

with a students first exposure to simulated emergencies i am not looking for a perfect execution of the process, i am looking for indications that the student is 1. flying the airplane, 2. thinking through the problem 3. flying the airplane, 4. attempting to solve the problem, 5 flying the airplane.

in the case of fire, the most important thing is 1. flying the airplane, then determining the source and removing one of the three things needed for fire, and flying the airplane. in the case of fire, flying the airplane means one thing, getting it on the ground in a controlled manner NOW.


bob
 
At times where I have had an instructor give me a vague task such as "investigate cockpit checks" or even during a BFR, I've assumed they want me to get out the POH and do a little reading. Those tasks specific to the airplane you're training in should be outlined there.

As for FlyingRon's comment, I believe the OP said he was dinged for not attempting restart during the practice of the "Engine Out Procedure" not the "Engine Fire" procedure.
 
MAKG1 said:
Read the POH.

I seriously doubt your instructor intended for you to use only the information he gave you directly.

No clairvoyance necessary. All the information in the POH is relevant to being a competent pilot.
Click to expand...
:yes:
 
Go over the checklist for emergency situations,and read the POH
 
Your instructor gave you the shorthand version. You were expected to research what that entailed by reading through your checklist/POH. My instructor just called it the ABC's:

1. Aviate (best glide)
2. Best landing
3. Communicate

Then find the source of the problem, which sounds like where he was on you. The emergency checklist or POH will outline those steps, which varies slightly from plane to plane.
 
You can look in the Airplane Flying Handbook for general emergency procedures then look in your POH or flight manual for the specific steps
 
I appreciate all comments including the comment about the POH

my private pilot training to date has had multiple instructors and some prior instructors have not only provided written instructions/steps for emergency procedures, but had also demonstrated the procedure (from a to z)while in flight before I would do the procedure. as I am a primarily visual learner, watching someone do it first is very helpfull to me. and add to that, some instructors will, as they demonstrate the procedure, verbally say out loud what they are looking at/scanning for in the cockpit, and well as out side the plane. this is also VERY usefull

the instructor I was with did some demonstration of the procedure in flight(and very little verbal narrative) and very little in the simulator.
 
There's stuff missing from the POH, though.

It wasn't until I started reading about flying on the interwebz that I got the mental state that's supposed to go along with the emergency procedures. Like, I used to stress over the engine restart procedures and trying to figure out what was wrong and fix it. The stress came from knowing that I may not be able to fix it, or figure out what's wrong in a few minutes and get it started again, but somehow being expected to. It wasn't until I read the magic phrase "once the engine quits the insurance company owns it" did it start to REALLY make sense.

I'm not expressing this well, but I think you have to be mentally prepared for the response to a given emergency situation. It's entirely possible (likely, even) that you won't be able to restart the engine. The Manual presents this as "if this happens, do this". What's missing is the implied "But you're probably going to land off field anyway".

Now, yes, this is probably just stupidly obvious. But the way the material was presented when I got my PPL was "you're going to be tested over this, so memorize these steps and do this, then this..." with little discussion or practice about why or what to do next. Missing was a frank discussion about general emergencies. If I'd been told "Look, everything here is about trying not to die. You're almost certainly going to hurt the plane we're just trying to make sure you live through it" I think a lot more of it would have made sense sooner.
 
MAKG1 said:
Read the POH.

I seriously doubt your instructor intended for you to use only the information he gave you directly.

No clairvoyance necessary. All the information in the POH is relevant to being a competent pilot.
Click to expand...

Yes you should be familiar with the POH of the plane you fly... that said if your engine ever dies and/or catches on fire that is not the best time to reference the POH. Emergency procedures should be on your checklist in the cockpit with you. Cut & Paste of mine.

ENGINE FAILURES

IMMEDIATELY AFTER TAKEOFF
Pitch 65 KIAS
Troubleshoot If Alt Permits
Land Straight Ahead

DURING FLIGHT
Pitch 65 KIAS
Landing Site Select / Into Wind
Fuel Selector BOTH
Mixture RICH
Carburetor Heat ON
PRIMER LOCKED
MASTER Switch ON
IGNITION BOTH / RESTART

ENGINE FAILS TO START
Pitch 65 KIAS
Fuel / Mixture OFF
Seat Belts Secure
Transponder 7700
Communicate 121.5
Doors Ajar

FIRES

ENGINE FIRE DURING FLIGHT
Fuel / Mixture OFF
MASTER Switch OFF
Vents / Windows Open if smoke enters
Pitch 100 KIAS

ELECTRICAL FIRE DURING FLIGHT
MASTER / Avionics OFF
Circuit Breakers Check which is out
Fire Extinguish
Vents Open if smoke enters

EMERGENCY DESCENT
Throttle CLOSE
Flaps Down below 85
Airspeed to extinguish 100 KIAS
Landing site Acquire

ALTERNATOR TROUBLESHOOT
MASTER Cycle
Ammeter Confirm discharge
Electrical Load Reduce/Land soon
 
flyingron said:
Your instructor is an ass. You are not expected to clairvoyantly know steps that are not part of the procedure. That's why you have emergency checklists.

Unless this was a engine fire that occurred during engine start, I can't believe attempting an engine start is on any manufacturer's (or sane person's) checklist. The key thing is to do what you can to stop additional fuel from reaching the fire. That is move the mixture to idle cutoff and turn off the fuel valve. Secondary steps involve keeping the fire/smoke out of the cockpit so you can avigate. That usually means shutting off the cabin heat and possibly any vents that may be admitting smoke (though if smoke is present, you may open vents to attempt to clear the air).

One thing you should know, there's little chance you're going to put out an engine fire in a light single. You have only one job after the steps above... GET ON THE GROUND. Make a rapid descent to the nearest practicable landing spot. I've seen the results of a few engine fires. I have one friend who got his Navion on the ground just in time to get out of it.
Click to expand...


That.
 
Your instructor was right to ding you for not attempting a restart during engine out drills.

While you may not know the exact steps, if the engine quits at altitude there should be a very ingrained instinct to try getting the noise going again.
 
warthog1984 said:
Your instructor was right to ding you for not attempting a restart during engine out drills.

While you may not know the exact steps, if the engine quits at altitude there should be a very ingrained instinct to try getting the noise going again.
Click to expand...

Please read the scenario again. It was not a random engine failure, it was an ENGINE FIRE. You would not do things that you would have to do to restart t he engine (notably throwing FUEL on the fire).
 
flyingron said:
Please read the scenario again. It was not a random engine failure, it was an ENGINE FIRE. You would not do things that you would have to do to restart t he engine (notably throwing FUEL on the fire).
Click to expand...

Reading the original post (which I just did) there were two scenarios: engine fire and engine out.

John


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
My CFI likes SLAMS for engine stop

S = Speed, establish best glide
L = select a landing site
A = Attempt air start (switch fuel switch, boost pump on, mixture rich, carb heat on, check mags)
M = Mayday (if time)
S = Secure the aircraft

For an engine fire he likes a very aggressive approach.
1. Roll airplane to between 45 and 60 degrees.
2. Pitch down and basically pin the ASI at the top of the green.
3. Get that vertical speed indicator between 1500 and 2000 fps.
4. Throttle off, mixture off, master off, fuel switch off.

His logic is if you have a fire and can not extinguish it, you want your ass on the ground ASAP. Try to pick a landing site, but getting to the ground is better than exploding.
 
flyingron said:
Please read the scenario again. It was not a random engine failure, it was an ENGINE FIRE. You would not do things that you would have to do to restart t he engine (notably throwing FUEL on the fire).
Click to expand...

Try again.

[Quote OP]
assuming most of you have been introduced/trained with this procedure, is this the level of detail above what you were provided(for engine out)….and would you have “automatically” known attempt engine restart when you first learned it. [/quote]
 
Best course of action is before the next flight have a long talk with your instructor as to what he is looking for. All instructors do things a bit different and in order to satisfy him you are going to have to do it HIS WAY. Whille others on here have given you great advice it may go against what your instructor wants to see.
 
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