building hours efficiently vfr->ifr

[mmilano]

after i get my pp, i will want to go for my ir, however i will need the 50 xc hours.

for my ir, i will also need 40 hours of simulated instrument.

i understand that 15 0f those 40 hours are manditory to be with a cfii, and the remaining 25 hours can be with a non cfii rated pilot spotting.

first question: is that true?

now to the meat of my inquiry.

could i go fly with a spotting friend on a few xc trips to kill 2 birds with one stone?

for example: if i fly with a friend on a xc trip that i am under the hood. i would log both xc and hood time. let's say after a few months i have 50 xc hours and 25 hood hours like this. would i then be able to take another 15 hours of ir training and test for my rating?

-or- could i start training for my ir rating before i have 50 xc hours? then, just do 15 hours with a cfii, and build the rest of my xc and hood time with the friend?

i'm just trying to optomize the financials and time with a friend would take a LOT of the cost out of training. (no cfii & 1/2 the rental)

 

[Dave Theisen]

Mike,

Yes, it is true that only 15 hours need to be with CFI-I. Most likely, you will need more, but you can do quite a bit with the safety pilot. I would suggest that you start the training with the instructor, and then go with a safety pilot. Doing it the other way around, you may develop bad habits that the instructor will then have break you of. Learning it right with the instructor, and then practicing with the safety pilot would be my recommendation.

 

[jesse]

Well.. You could do that.

I would personally advise you to enjoy the time in between and fly some fun cross countries with family / friends.

I don't know if it'd be that great of an idea to do that much simulated instrument without a CFI. You'll end up developing a lot of bad habits that could take quite awhile with a CFI to fix. Not only that a lot of that time is going to be spent shooting approaches with a CFI. You won't be able to learn everything with 15 hours of dual with a CFI to be able to pass the test, and more importantly be a safe instrument pilot.

See where I am coming from? 3 hours or so might do you some good. Anything more then that without a CFI to teach you is just going to be wasting good time where you could be looking out the window.

 

[mmilano]

yeah good points .. i didn't think of the "-or-" part till after i wrote the first part which made me think of the potential bad habit developments like you guys pointed out.

i just wasn't sure if a cfii could start ir instruction w/o 50 xc hrs. i guess i could have always just asked him

thanks though, .. seems like i can still save a bit of cash going this route now that i know a friend pilot who would help out.

 

[Dave Theisen]

I usually tell my students to go get at least 25 to 30 hours of their 50 hours of cross country time on their own before they start their instrument training. The remaining time can be done as part of instrument training or done by yourself as a break from training (Hey, I want to be able to see something today!)

I feel that getting some cross country time on you own first is important. It helps you with you situational awareness and planning as well as learning to make decisions for yourself. When people dive right into instrument training the day after their PPL checkride, it is too easy for them to end up being over reliant on their instructors.

If money is an issue, be sure to make each flight count. Instead of taking your friends sight seeing around in circles for an hour, go do a touch-and-go at an airport 50+ miles away and come home. You spend about the same amount of money, but the time has a lot more value.

 

[EdFred]

I doubled up best I could.
Took the IR check ride at 106 hours.
About 1/2 or more of my XC time was under the hood with the CFII.

 

[Bill]

(Hey, I want to be able to see something today!)

Boy oh boy does that sound nice. I've only flown 2hrs VFR in the last 32 hrs, the rest have been under the hood. I'll probably have to re-learn how to use the pattern again, I'm so used to shooting them in close and doing the yank and dump landing.

Instead of taking your friends sight seeing around in circles for an hour, go do a touch-and-go at an airport 50+ miles away and come home.

I did this almost exclusively once getting my PP, I rolled up about 40hrs PIC XC before starting IR, and have gotten the last 10 in on PIC XC's under the hood using safety pilots.

 

[AirBaker]

Most of my flying was XC right after I got my ticket. I never knew it was hard to build this time. I have to agree with the splitting time with friends/other pilots!

 

[Richard]

If money is an issue, be sure to make each flight count. Instead of taking your friends sight seeing around in circles for an hour, go do a touch-and-go at an airport 50+ miles away and come home. You spend about the same amount of money, but the time has a lot more value.

When is money not an issue? My point is that one should put some thought into how they are going to spend that money even if they are dripping with the green. That is one reason why I fully support what you have said about not simply burning laps in the local patt. Absolutely, make each flight count.

 

[robsingles]

Comment on logging your time after your PP check ride and taking friends or not. If you plan to go on to your commercial you have requirements for doing certain tasks SOLO. When you are logging your time, mark if you are solo or not so when it comes time to figure it out you know for sure.

 

[poadeleted20]

Go ahead and build some XC experience, but before doing that hood work, I recommend getting a few instrument lessons with a CFI-IA so you are practicing good procedures, not making habits out of bad ones. Let your instructor tell you when you're ready to do that practice, and assign specific tasks as "homework" during those practice flights. Finding a "study buddy" who's also going through instrument training with the same instructor is even better -- you each ride in back while the other one is taking lessons, and then swap hood time practicing what you've learned. That is the most effective way I've seen to maximize both learning and training efficiency.

 

[mmilano]

Finding a "study buddy" who's also going through instrument training with the same instructor is even better -- you each ride in back while the other one is taking lessons, and then swap hood time practicing what you've learned. That is the most effective way I've seen to maximize both learning and training efficiency.

Good Point. I sat in the back on a mock check-ride with my friend who is getting ready for his ifr checkride. It is a pretty different perspective when you are not in the left seat. I definatly learned in a much different way by not having all the responsibility of flying the plane while I watched the lesson.

Comment on logging your time after your PP check ride and taking friends or not. If you plan to go on to your commercial you have requirements for doing certain tasks SOLO. When you are logging your time, mark if you are solo or not so when it comes time to figure it out you know for sure.

thanks rob, i didn't consider that. not sure if i'm going on to commercial, but i will be sure to comment just in case.

::edit oops, i meant to reply not edit duh.::
:: edit edit .. oh, it automerged my posts .. i'm not going crazy afterall ::

 

[bharris]

i just wasn't sure if a cfii could start ir instruction w/o 50 xc hrs. i guess i could have always just asked him

You must have the 50 hours XC before you apply for the Checkride. You can start IR training at any time, regardless of the XC time you have.

However, getting several XCs "under your belt" will give you experience in handling the airplane, making WX decisions, navigation, understanding headwinds/tailwinds and their affect on fuel, and just sitting in the A/C talking to ATC, etc. These are things you need to have experienced before you throw in the aspect of flying on the guages on a XC.

I would recommend making your XCs longer and over varied routes, not just trying to get the 50+nm flights in your logbook. Also, a portion of the XC time could also be done with the CFII under the hood.

 

[poadeleted20]

Also, a portion of the XC time could also be done with the CFII under the hood. [emphasis added]

While this will help the trainee's XC PIC time column grow, most of us instrument instructors prefer to put the trainee under the hood, as that lets them log the time as instrument flying, and they usually need that time more than we do.

 

[EdFred]

While this will help the trainee's XC PIC time column grow, most of us instrument instructors prefer to put the trainee under the hood, as that lets them log the time as instrument flying, and they usually need that time more than we do.

OH those pesky commas.

 

[Henning]

after i get my pp, i will want to go for my ir, however i will need the 50 xc hours.

for my ir, i will also need 40 hours of simulated instrument.

i understand that 15 0f those 40 hours are manditory to be with a cfii, and the remaining 25 hours can be with a non cfii rated pilot spotting.

first question: is that true?

now to the meat of my inquiry.

could i go fly with a spotting friend on a few xc trips to kill 2 birds with one stone?

for example: if i fly with a friend on a xc trip that i am under the hood. i would log both xc and hood time. let's say after a few months i have 50 xc hours and 25 hood hours like this. would i then be able to take another 15 hours of ir training and test for my rating?

-or- could i start training for my ir rating before i have 50 xc hours? then, just do 15 hours with a cfii, and build the rest of my xc and hood time with the friend?

i'm just trying to optomize the financials and time with a friend would take a LOT of the cost out of training. (no cfii & 1/2 the rental)

Unless your friend is a very experienced instrument pilot, I wouldn't recommend this. As for the time, right after my PP I took a loooong X/C "back east" to go visiting. That ate up all my X/C requirement plus lots of the time to the 125hrs required for an IR back then. It also really got me "on" as to trimming and light smooth operation of the controls. Nothing like 11 hrs a day in the cockpit to do that for you.