briefer insists on zulu time?

StevieTimes

StevieTimes

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StevieTimes
I've had briefers who want you to give it in local time, to keep in simple for you (which is a nice service, I think); and then I've had briefers who insist on everything being in Zulu time. I much prefer the former. I can do the Zulu addition, but seriously...

This morning I gave my departure location and time, and said local time after giving the time. The briefer said he wouldn't accept local time, only Zulu time. I said "OK, well, 9:30 local time, plus five"... and he cut me off, and again insisted "no local time, we only accept Zulu time". I continued "...I'm sorry, I was doing the calculation for you; plus five hours would be 14:30 Zulu" and somehow we got disconnected.

I waited a few minutes, called back, and got a lady who seemed nicer.

Don't they want people to call in? I've had briefers who just ask for local time and do it for me, and are very personable, and make me want to use the phone service again. Mr. Crankypants made me want to explore the online options. It wasn't the insistence on using Zulu; but his annoyed tone, and interruption while I'm doing what he wants, was mildly annoying. His tone was not welcoming.

I guess in the future I'll have my times ready in Zulu, but geez, I really like the ones who seem like they're on your side and trying to help in any way they can.

Are there only a few "Zulu only" briefers, or are they all supposed to do that? I must have been getting lucky in the past that I haven't been getting these people, and whoever I've been getting has been nice enough to let me do it wrong.
 
Seems like there is always someone somewhere that wants to lose his/her job and their fellow workers by scaring away customers.


David
 
There is a CYA portion to this, say for example you are in New England in January (UTC -5, -4 during daylight savings) and report departure at 12:00 local, and the TAF shows deteriorating conditions starting at your destination for your correct ETA where, an hour earlier they were fine. If the briefer does the conversion for you an calculates your departure as 1600Z instead of 1700Z your terminal weather may be worse than the expected conditions and may require an alternate where departing at 1600Z did not. Now you are flying in violation of 91.169 and best case if you have some incident and survive is for it to be their ass, worst case you ball up the plane and die because you didn't verify their calculation .

If they did the addition for you, you should confirm the Z time they are referring to, and ensure that it was accurately entered.
 
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I have experienced that. Most of the time, now days I use relative time. In other words I just say departing in 20 minutes and none of them complain about that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
When you file with fore flight they use local time.Some controllers just can't accept change.
 
I have had pleasant briefers. I have had briefers joke around with me (one asked me what my rental aircraft color was - I said "crap" because i couldn't remember and he asked me if I meant brownish). I have had briefers and FSS folk on the radio seem annoyed I was bothering them. People have good and bad days and some folks aren't generally cut out for customer service.
 
Yep. That's why I stopped using the phone option. Their pedantic and cranky demeanor is not what I need while Im out doing this recreationally. DUATS doesn't talk back or give me attitude, so now I just do online exclusively. Phone attitude... Ain't nobody got time fo dat! :D
 
I've had those types before, maybe they didn't get hugged enough as a kid or something.

I normally use FltPlan QICP weather, when I do call in I usually just say departing top or bottom of the hour, never been a issue really

They know your time zone when you tell them where you're departing.
 
ScottM said:
People still call in for briefings??? WOW! How 20th century!
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I like it for students, they can always ask a question and most briefers can tell they are a green horn and will break things down for them.

Not a fan of having my guys play around with apps and all that until they AT LEAST have their PPL.
 
ScottM said:
People still call in for briefings??? WOW! How 20th century!
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I always do, hell, I remember when I used to walk into the FSS, make a cup of their coffee and sit down with the briefer and go over all the weather charts with a meteorologist who had 20 years experience with the regional weather and could tell me when the predicted forecast wasn't going to be correct and which routings and passes would be best to use that day...<sigh> Sometimes progress really isn't.
 
Henning said:
I always do, hell, I remember when I used to walk into the FSS, make a cup of their coffee and sit down with the briefer and go over all the weather charts with a meteorologist who had 20 years experience with the regional weather and could tell me when the predicted forecast wasn't going to be correct and which routings and passes would be best to use that day...<sigh> Sometimes progress really isn't.
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Sometimes the look in the briefer's eye told you more about your go/no-go decision than did all the thermal-printed prog charts and teletyped sequence reports.
 
So I wonder how I can avoid these "fun-loving" briefers? I do like having an expert verify my go/no go findings.

Can I just ask for a different briefer at the first sign of unpleasant attitude? Is that wrong? ...or is it best to have something go bad with your connection, and just keep trying?

I had one other "Zulu-purist" in the past, and it was at the wrong time, because I was trying to put a flight together quickly, had family pressures (unrelated to the flight) and members trying to talk to me during my briefing, and this guy keeps insisting I add five to whatever number I give him (while I've got other numbers going through my head). At the end he chastised me for doing the briefing while such distractions were present. I gritted my teeth and apologized.

I hesitate to throw out the phrase "it's their job" to help pilots with their flight planning... maybe they serve a much bigger role and I am just a annoyance.
 
Maybe I just get lucky, but I have have had very few briefers that were anything but nice. I have run into the Zulu thing, and also once in a great while, if they are new, I have had a complaint or two that I am going out of order on the information, but many are even a bit chatty and will give route tips and go beyond reading a list of NOTAMs.

I usually just call on my drive to the airport, that way I can focus on the preflight when I get to the plane. Sometimes I will just use my iPad/ForeFlight to check NOTAMs and TFRs for short and local flights, but for longer cross countries I prefer to call.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
I don't know how the call centers work, but for the region I fly in I've yet to get a jerk on the other end of the line. Some are just-the-facts professional, and some will inject some local commentary and/or humor, but none have been unpleasant.

FWIW, I always provide my times in Zulu or in relative time ("planning to leave an hour from now").
 
StevieTimes said:
So I wonder how I can avoid these "fun-loving" briefers? I do like having an expert verify my go/no go findings.

Can I just ask for a different briefer at the first sign of unpleasant attitude? Is that wrong? ...or is it best to have something go bad with your connection, and just keep trying?

I had one other "Zulu-purist" in the past, and it was at the wrong time, because I was trying to put a flight together quickly, had family pressures (unrelated to the flight) and members trying to talk to me during my briefing, and this guy keeps insisting I add five to whatever number I give him (while I've got other numbers going through my head). At the end he chastised me for doing the briefing while such distractions were present. I gritted my teeth and apologized.

I hesitate to throw out the phrase "it's their job" to help pilots with their flight planning... maybe they serve a much bigger role and I am just a annoyance.
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Careful with that (reliance on FSS for wx expertise).

And, do the math and give them Zulu time like you're supposed to (or use relative time). If you're so pressured that you can't "add five" yourself, then perhaps you're too pressured to be planning / executing a flight.

Additionally, your "add five" routine might work fine where you are in Minnesota, but gets a bit dicey in Indiana or Arizona or on tribal lands or other places where time zone boundaries and daylight savings time practices "vary"
 
Henning said:
I always do, hell, I remember when I used to walk into the FSS, make a cup of their coffee and sit down with the briefer and go over all the weather charts with a meteorologist who had 20 years experience with the regional weather and could tell me when the predicted forecast wasn't going to be correct and which routings and passes would be best to use that day...<sigh> Sometimes progress really isn't.
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+1 !
;)
 
ScottM said:
People still call in for briefings??? WOW! How 20th century!
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The one thing that (most) phone briefings do better on is NOTAMs. It still blows me away how DUAT(s) seems to do a coredump of NOTAMs that can't possible affect my flight (brief a 40nm flight in MN and get NOTAMs about TRW in Alabama?). Usually the LM briefers are able to weed out the chaff. They're generally also better at decoding the weird contractions that defy understanding by mere mortals.

You gotta love that the FAA still likes to remove all vowels to save characters but puts out three pages of boilerplate that provides no useful information (and makes it harder to find the important stuff) with every VIP TFR.
 
I once had a briefer who kept interrupting me in the middle of a sentence to ask me for the next piece of information he wanted. Then he jumped down my throat for not telling him something that I was about to tell him before he interrupted. I haven't done a phone briefing/flight plan since then.
 
If I was a briefer...

I'd insist on Zulu also...

It would not be my job to do the pilot's preflight planning (and math) for him/her.
 
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I like the briefers that I talk to.

Also, I like it that I am recorded when I repeat "No TFRs" when the briefer says it. It seems like good CYA.
 
JoeSelch said:
Careful with that (reliance on FSS for wx expertise).

And, do the math and give them Zulu time like you're supposed to (or use relative time). If you're so pressured that you can't "add five" yourself, then perhaps you're too pressured to be planning / executing a flight.

Additionally, your "add five" routine might work fine where you are in Minnesota, but gets a bit dicey in Indiana or Arizona or on tribal lands or other places where time zone boundaries and daylight savings time practices "vary"
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I had done all the proper planning, in quiet, with no pressure... but as luck would have it, when I made the call to file the plan, in came a gaggle of family members, all whispering questions to me regarding what time is this and what time is that. Yes, you're right, I should have stopped the call to the briefer right then and there, and called back while in my car... was just hoping for a little help. Yes, I agree, in my area, the easy +5 math is easy. You'd have to have been there to understand why that easy math was giving me trouble. I was supposed to be gone before the family arrived at my house; they were early.

As soon as I left that gathering that was happening at my house, things were immediately calm again, so yes, would have been way easier if I just would have cancelled the call and tried again later... you know how it goes, just figured how easy would it be just to get a flight plan filed! I learned my lesson, I'll call back next time I'm interrupted, and I'll have my times in local and Zulu.

I do the planning, I'm not depending on them for weather; but it's nice to say "I see this, what do you guys see", and make sure we agree. It's a feel good, I guess.

I'll have it ready in Zulu next time; I just preferred the ones that knew where I was and asked for it in local, that's all.
 
I use Lockheed Martin when I need to file an IFR plan with less than 30 minutes notice, and when I like a second opinion on my amateur meteorology skills(it's always nice to talk to someone then). Always give Zulu or relative time. Never had a mean briefer, some are matter of fact in a Joe Friday way, and others are quite amiable. Even when I first started using them and would flub up they always were helpful. My only issue is occasionally they give too much information.

Interestingly enough used them today for my return flight PMP->PGD and when I gave them my N-number, they had all my personal and plane information ready without me giving it to them. This has never happened to me before.
 
Brad Z said:
Well, I have to file my flight plan with them, so sometimes I just get a briefing too if time is tight.
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Just curious, why do you have to file with a human rather than online?
 
ChrisK said:
Because the electronic / automated systems won't accept a flight plan if the departure time is too soon.
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I file via Foreflight (which AFaIK uses DUAT) as little as 10 minutes before the proposed ETD and never had a problem picking up the clearance. And you can get your clearance up to half an hour before the ETD you filed (assuming it was filed at least 5 minutes before you call for clearance.
 
ChrisK said:
I do both.
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I do on long XC if there is anything I want to get a different perspective. Did yesterday on flight from El Paso to Fullerton. Landed near Tuscon and just wanted an abbreviated for Fullerton weather only. Talked another 10 minutes as he is a pilot and a friend of his was ferrying his aircraft to a field near San Antonio and was currently flying the area I just completed and asked how my flight was (smooth as silk and I did call a pirep in on the route). He sold his AC and is purchasing another. Ialways get great briefers and usually great ATC.
 
I encourage you to file a complaint on this.,. Any briefer who "disconnects" a pilot like this needs to be fired.
 
gismo said:
I file via Foreflight (which AFaIK uses DUAT) as little as 10 minutes before the proposed ETD and never had a problem picking up the clearance. And you can get your clearance up to half an hour before the ETD you filed (assuming it was filed at least 5 minutes before you call for clearance.
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Really? I swear I've had it complain to me if I was within 30 minutes.. maybe I'm getting old..
 
briefers are generally very nice to me on the phone, but it's like EVERY profession--there are always a few a-holes in the bunch.
 
ChrisK said:
Really? I swear I've had it complain to me if I was within 30 minutes.. maybe I'm getting old..
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Not sure about Forflight, but unless DUAT has changed in the last week, it will reject any IFR plan that is planned for less than 30 minutes in the future. Or, unless, there is a way around it I do not know about.
 
StevieTimes said:
So I wonder how I can avoid these "fun-loving" briefers? I do like having an expert verify my go/no go findings.
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Be careful about relying on a guy in Texas to give you a go/no-go decision. During a briefing back in late May when I was trying to get my son back up to where he was working for the summer, the briefer was adamant this was a no-go day because of thunderstorms. I had been watching them on my iPad for several hours and they seemed to have stalled. He said no, they would definitely overtake our destination before we got there.

I flew anyways. We had beautiful VFR for the 200 nm flight up and all the way back.

Take their input, but learn to analyze things for yourself.
 
gismo said:
I file via Foreflight (which AFaIK uses DUAT) as little as 10 minutes before the proposed ETD and never had a problem picking up the clearance. And you can get your clearance up to half an hour before the ETD you filed (assuming it was filed at least 5 minutes before you call for clearance.
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FF uses DUATS I believe. But otherwise, I agree. The only caveat with FF is that their default departure time is always too soon -- by the time I've downloaded (not even read) the briefing, it's often too late to file for that time. Earlier this summer I filed via FF from an uncontrolled field in northern IN for a time 15 minutes in the future (after several rejections due to delays because of slow data transfer), fueled, departed and called a couple minutes early for my clearance -- and it was there waiting for me, no issues.
 
StevieTimes said:
I've had briefers who want you to give it in local time, to keep in simple for you (which is a nice service, I think); and then I've had briefers who insist on everything being in Zulu time. I much prefer the former. I can do the Zulu addition, but seriously...
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I don't recall ever having a briefer who wants me to give time in local time. If I'm just flying around around the patch for proficiency, I've had briefers accept me telling them that I'm departing in 1/2 hour and we convert that to Zulu together but I've never received a briefing in which the briefer either accepted local time or translated all the information to local time for me nor would I expect them to do so. I just think that would be asking for mistakes and/or trouble.

Things are standardized for a reason and Zulu is one of those standardizations.

We don't fly VFR westbound at 5,500', 7,500' or 9,500'.

We don't announce that we're landing on "that runway that runs NW to SE" at the local airport. Nor do we number that runway 150, we number it 15.

Converting to Zulu is one of the first items taught to primary students and it's ingrained in aviation so I guess I don't understand why anyone would want to use anything other than Zulu.
 
I've reported a briefer before. There's a little known link on the LM website(well there was a year or so ago anyway) to report briefing problems. I don't know if it's still there, but I hope so.
 
acrophile said:
Just curious, why do you have to file with a human rather than online?
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I'm based in the Washington DC Flight Restriction Zone (FRZ). I'm required to speak with a FSS specialist to file every inbound or outbound flight from my home airport so that they may verify my identity and insert the appropriate remarks in my flight plan. Can't do that on DUATs inside the FRZ.
 
timwinters said:
I don't recall ever having a briefer who wants me to give time in local time. If I'm just flying around around the patch for proficiency, I've had briefers accept me telling them that I'm departing in 1/2 hour and we convert that to Zulu together but I've never received a briefing in which the briefer either accepted local time or translated all the information to local time for me nor would I expect them to do so. I just think that would be asking for mistakes and/or trouble.
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Just to add a data point, I've had briefers give my read-back and weather forecasts in local time after I gave them my departure time in zulu... Not that I really mind one way or the other.
 
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